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Topic: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Replies: 122   Views: 238,631   Pages: 9   Last Post: Nov 17, 2010, 10:26 AM by: zoeyk

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Replies: 122   Views: 238,631   Pages: 9   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | Next ]
zoeyk

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 6:36 AM

to up2ng

in your sequence, and looks nice, but, if white declines to take the K13 capture, then the F16 threat of 4x3 next move will still be viable. you based it around capturing from this threat to make the double 3s, but with the K13 cap avoided it doesnt work out for P2.

almost

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jasonb

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 7:37 AM

How can there be a K13 capture with up2ng's sequence? Puzzle starts at move 21; the pieces up to that point were just thrown on the board to match zoey's picture.



zoeyk

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 7:57 AM

oh, hmmm yes ok,.. i stand corrected. i did it in my head there. playing it out i guess would had helped.

up2ng did say K12 twice so he assumed a cap was there, and thus so did i, he implanted that suggestion in my head.

how ever,

but even still, i was right that if black plays to make the double 3 like he said at L13,.. white goes F16 4x3 and wins.

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jasonb

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 8:04 AM

I'm going to go out on a limb here and stand by my original statement. Stacked deck, no way for black to win. There I said it.

zoeyk

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 8:09 AM

youll need to try my suggested moves before being sure,.. the puzzle was designed to try my suggestion.

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jasonb

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 4:55 PM

I tried every combination of moves I could conceive of and I tried your suggested starting moves first. I played Black and had the computer (AI 12) play White useing Mammel's program. I then let AI 12 play against itself. I tried both of these methods from both the start and with L10,M6.

I never tried to solve for White because it has multiple winning counter attacks to Blacks attempts to win, including the fukumi you just pointed out to up2ng.

up2ng

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 5:37 PM

Hey, great catch Jason, I had not noticed the F16 possibility -- I was doing this "look ahead" in my head without moving any physical pieces as I would do if I were playing a live game. When things get this messy it is easy to overlook possibilities like that on the fly.

However, what about this. If white declines the capture to K13 and instead just blocks at M12, then:

G12, G11 (countering F16 with a threat to K14*), then L13 (however, this plays into a capture and might lead to cap trouble.

alternatively, how about:

G12, G11, then G8 and J8!

Take a look and get back to me...

(P.S. -- it's hard to throw together a puzzle so quickly without some unintended solutions as I'm sure Zoey would agree! But, the point here is not the puzzle building, it's about what your thought processes should be in real games that have become complex and messy like this one -- always look at a few different options, try to follow them through in your mind, and then choose carefully -- there might be more than one solution in a real game...)

jasonb

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 8:29 PM

Your solution is very clever up2ng, but I still don't think it is a win for Black. Here is one way it could play out, but there are so many paths. BTW, the K13 capture is never an option; nothing to decline. I agree with your P.S completely. Even if there is no solution for Black, which I stand by, Zoey's puzzle is extremely creative! And it does offer an excellent opportunity to discuss the thought process behind deciding where to move next. Once it is determined if Black has a chance to win or not, I will pick a path for White and discuss my thought process for that path.




nosovs

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 16, 2010, 9:15 PM

27 K14 ???
instead 27 M11

zoeyk

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 17, 2010, 1:48 AM

i might agree with alex here.

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jasonb

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 17, 2010, 4:22 PM

nosovs, I tried M11 for White at move 27 before exploring this path but it seemed like a weaker move for White. I am sure you see many things that I can't yet visualize, so I will look at M11 some more.

up2ng, I now think you may be on to something. I found what appears to be a win for Black with a modification to move 29; but I am uncertain if White has a counter to it and I am sure this is not perfect play because I am not.

zoeyk

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 18, 2010, 1:09 AM

to up2ng.
i noticed your way of explaining is a backwards motion from end to beginning. and mine was more of a forward motion, although i do work backwards from 4th to 1st to solve the basic K10 attack in long range opens.
i think your way is the natural process that occurs the long hard way. i think mine is a synthetic way of explaining the easier way with things pre-realized. the kinda way you start to look at it once youve already done the natural backwards process. you then start in a forward motion. and ive always wondered if you could teach a new player in the forward motion to speed up the process. and i think your opinion is a new player Must learn the natural longer way of end to start.

interesting to think about tho.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
nosovs

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 18, 2010, 1:33 PM

yes jasonb it is the same variant because it have to protect the same point K14


Message was edited by: nosovs at Oct 18, 2010 7:33 AM


zoeyk

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 26, 2010, 2:28 PM

to up2ng. you asked how i made the images.

several steps.

i used a beta pente program not currently available to the public to set the positions.

i used the infallsoft screen capture to take a picture of the boards position and it sends the image to the clip board. (this is a free down load software which does not leave a water mark and does not have a ending trial period.)
click here to download -> http://www.infallsoft.com/download/iscsetup.exe

i then pasted the image from the clip board into a photo shop type program called Corel Paint Shop Pro Photo X2.
ckick here for free trial download -> http://www.soft32.com/download/63-133622/PSPP12_Corel_TBYB_EN_IE_FR_DE_ES_IT_NL_ESD.exe

this program came free with my computer, but usually does not unless you buy a top shelf computer designed for heavy graphics rendering from what i understand.

mine is the HP DV7-3085DX Quad Duo laptop with a 19 inch screen.
Yup, it has 8 CPUs.. designed for heavy graphic rendering.
bought it when it first released for $1,500. any ways..


once i had my image made and ready to go, i uploaded it to Tinypic.com. once uploaded it gives you the HTML code to paste in here to display the image.
click here to upload -> http://tinypic.com/

thats pretty much it in a nut shell...

as far as how to use photo shop type programs, there are good tutorials on youtube.com you can check out.

hope that helped.

z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Oct 26, 2010, 2:45 PM

additionally, to get more advanced, there is a way to create a html slide show. so multiple images presenting them selves in a single frame to explain something step by step. if you figure out the first stuff i was saying this could be the next step in being ambitious.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Replies: 122   Views: 238,631   Pages: 9   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | Next ]
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