Home » Forum Home » Analysis

Topic: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Replies: 122   Views: 238,628   Pages: 9   Last Post: Nov 17, 2010, 10:26 AM by: zoeyk

Search Forum

Back to Topic List Topics: [ Previous | Next ]
Replies: 122   Views: 238,628   Pages: 9   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | Next ]
zoeyk

Posts: 2,070
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 10:03 PM

nothing much. we were talking about our AIs, and i was showing what i was currently using it for to search. the puzzle and thread other wise seemed to be losing steam. i think the main focus of the thread we all kinda started straying away from any ways.

if you want to go back on point then lets, other wise im going to go off on a tangent here.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare

zoeyk

Posts: 2,070
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 10:31 PM

any ways the point of the puzzle was to show its not always easy to read a position. and you resorted to using a AI. so i think i made my point there.
we should go back to talking about understanding vs memorize perhaps.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
jasonb

Posts: 105
Registered: Jan 3, 2010
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 14, 2010, 12:45 AM

Zoey, you are right.

Back to your original question "here it is black to move. there are no captures. white has a 3. what is the thought process check list for P2 to proceed? and each move going forward, what will be both sides thought process check list? how will it play out if done correctly? who wins in perfect play here?"

Since no one has shown a way to defeat black on Option 1, I will take a stab at the thought process behind black's moves on that sequence. With this solution, I played black and had the AI play white. I could not find a way to beat white until up2ng suggested move 26. G11. I think that was the turning point in the game and the move that made the win possible for black.

21-23. H13,H13,M10 - Ignore open 3 by creating a bigger threat. Then capture K10 keystone and block open 3.
24-25. K12,G12 - Continue with bigger threat to maintain initiative. Set up board for future keystone captures.
26. G11 - up2ng's solution to defeat white's F16 fukumi.
27-28. G8,G10 - Continue forceing white's moves while building a stronger shape.
29. G13 - At this point, my initial thought was to go G14 for a keystone capture, but I discovered black's momentum hit a dead end after that and gave the win to white. G13 set up the board for the remaining captures that won the game for black.

Option 1



zoeyk

Posts: 2,070
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 14, 2010, 10:26 PM

well. first off, i think we need to go over the usage of the word "key stone". K10 is not a key stone the entire game. that is early in the opening or early mid. after that unless its blocking a 4, or blocking from 5th capture its not so key any more. in the opening its key for building momentum. whether you preserve the stone its self, or simply transfer its energy properly to the 4th stone for example. this is important to under stand when using that word. in my opinion any how.


now as far as the rest of your supposed thought process. first you are explaining what is happening every move once the solution has already been found. this is nothing the same as the thought process of finding the solution. again this is important to understand. you are not talking about how other things were eliminated and brought you to the final discovery. all these things are apart of figuring out a position.

next,.. the question was posed to say that, if your playing live, in a 20 minute rated game. and using a playable board is illegal. and using a AI prog is illegal,.. and having your friend (like up2ng) kibitz and tell you advice moves is illegal.

how then would your thought process be in 20 minutes by your self, to come to a solution? what would be the first things you would be thinking, and so on..ext ext

and lets just say that in this game, your clock didn't start ticking until you came to this position.

and since black wins here, lets say that you are player 2.

i am very certain, you would not find the solution in time. but there is still a thought process that should be moving in the direction of a solution. what is this "Natural" thought process? as opposed to a synthetic one via resources and time like turn based does.

a masters thought process will be different than a blue players. masters have built in mental tools that create short cuts in patterns, and see creative moves. and can for see the after math of massive Ply.

although certainly this puzzle example was a semi extreme situation of confusion.


zoeyk

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,070
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 14, 2010, 10:52 PM

i think perhaps the best thing to do is,.. we will play a game live. i will get you in to a sticky situation where i think you still have hope perhaps. and i will ask you to type every thing your thinking as it comes to you. this will be more natural i think. then have me play up2ng for example. have him put my P1 into a tough situation. and i will express all the thoughts im thinking.


this might help. see the thing is. although i do have a thought process,.. its pretty much auto pilot to the point where im not consciously aware of half of what im thinking. and some things i don't need to think about, because i just know them from memory, whether memorized because i thought it all out once upon a time, or because i just took a master's or the majorities word for it.



now as far as; "or because i just took a master's or the majorities word for it"

i know now days more than ever, that you need to question every thing for your self. i have seen too many common master's P1 sequences fall flat on its face by way of new P2 moves (novelties). whether new P2 moves were by a fluke of luck from a rooky, or by way of pure genius of a master (usually genius of a master), it matters not. some times you don't know what you think you know.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
jasonb

Posts: 105
Registered: Jan 3, 2010
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 15, 2010, 2:30 AM

K10 was part of the capture on move 23, but it was not the keystone. I meant to say L10. Keystone captures have become a frequent part of my game play; I understand the term.

My thought process, although simple compared to yours and other masters, is the same for each move I make. I scan the entire board and think through a check list, similar to what I mentioned near the start of this thread, looking for things like open 3s, open ended 4s, possible extensions, traps, keystones, fukumi's, dangerous shapes, etc. I look for these things from both P1 and P2 perspective. Your puzzle is filled with all of these things and more. What I've listed here is the end result of the thought process.

There is no way I could have come up with this solution in a 20 minute game; I doubt anyone could. I doubt I would have ever found it without up2ng's tip. All I did was connect the dots after he suggested that move.

Zoey: "a masters thought process will be different than a blue players. masters have built in mental tools that create short cuts in patterns, and see creative moves. and can for see the after math of massive Ply."

This thought process you mention is exactly what I hoped to discover when I started this thread.

I really like your idea of playing a live game and discussing the thought process behind the moves as they happen. Perhaps we could post the chat back into this forum so others that are interested can benefit.

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 15, 2010, 6:09 AM

Zoey, you seem a bit defensive in these last posts as if you were offended by something jason said -- and I'm just not seeing the reason. Hopefully it is just a simple misunderstanding or maybe I'm just misinterpreting...

Anyways, as for the term "keystone" (or is it key stone? I usually call it keystone...), I actually believe that jason is using it more correctly than you are in this case which is surprising since you are familiar with more terminology related to this game than just about any other active player these days!

Using the relatively new slang version of "key" such as when you say "its not so key any more" or "its key for building momentum" is just not correct usage. If you dive back into some of the early newsletters and tournament recaps from the early 80s, this is actually a well documented term that comes up occasionally in those writings and I don't believe that people were using this slang version of the word at that time.

Basically, the term "keystone", as seen historically in Pente descriptions, uses the word key much more like a literal key -- like one that you use to open a door. It describes the stone that is blocking one end of a tria or tessera in such a way that when this stone is removed via capture, it opens up an immediate threat which was dormant (because the tessera was blocked on both ends, for example) but now must be dealt with. In this way, the stone was acting like the "key" which opens the doorway (the threat) to a possible victory. The compound word "keystone" has an architectural meaning that seems at least somewhat related to this historical usage in the Pente community.

Normally, I've seen the term used in the context of a "keystone capture", and therefore, I would tend to refer to both stones of the pair as being "keystones" -- in jasonb's example, I would be referring to both K10 AND L10 as keystones in the context of a keystone capture on that particular move (move 21?).

Some of the confusion comes in because the term can often be used in reference to a "keystone attack", which in principle is the same thing, but it refers to setting up your stones in such a way that your opponent must block your tria or tessera in a manner that also plays into a vulnorable, capturable position (a pair of stones), and when this capture is made either immediately, or in the future, that is a keystone capture (which reopens the previously built tria or tessera). A common strategy for player 2 is to try to design an opening which will target the initial stone, K10, for a future keystone capture. This strategy is a keystone attack strategy. (Alternatively, playing the move that actually attacks the keystone pair, threatening a keystone capture on the next move, can also be known as keystone attack.) In fact, the primary idea behind moves such as 1 ... O9 or 1 ... O7 is to attempt to set up a keystone attack.

Keep in mind that it doesn't make as much sense to refer to any blocking stone as a keystone. It's only when that blocking stone is paired up with another (so that it could potentially be captured) that it should be referred to as a keystone.

There are some important offensive and defensive issues that crop up around keystones in Pente. Offensively, you will often try to steer your line so that you create a forcing move where your opponent must block some place that sets up a keystone capture. Then, after making such a capture, you can often continue your attack with this new stone (created from the act of capturing) and therefore it is an effective way of building your own momentum while simultaneously destroying your opponent's defenses. Defensively, you can make it difficult for your offensive opponent by setting up areas that are vulnorable to a keystone attack. For example, if your opponent has blocked your tessera, and then continues to build his attack in such a way that he creates a tria which uses a stone that is PAIRED WITH this tessera blocking stone, then you might be able to respond to this tria with a keystone attack rather than a block. In some cases this can turn the tables from being in a defensive position to being in an offensive position for the rest of the game.

Hopefully this clears up that point to anyone else still following this thread! Perhaps someone might even dig up one of those documents from the early 80s and do some fact checking for me...

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 15, 2010, 7:21 AM

Hey Jason, just to get back to the "thought process" part of this thread -- there is another concept that you should be adding to your checklist. I'm fairly certain that zoeyk, and others, refer to it as "tempo". I can't remember if it was brought up previously in this thread or how much it was discussed so I'll expand here.

Although I generally don't use that term, I don't actually have a term for what I'm thinking of and I'm assuming that this idea fits with what they describe as tempo -- if it turns out to be a seperate concept then I guess I'll have to give it a name, lol...

Anyways, it's just basically being aware of what "speed" potential threats can present themselves from the current position -- or in a simplistic way -- how many moves away from winning the game am I (or my opponent) if the other plays terribly for the rest of the game (although this isn't quite correct as you'll see).

Think of it like a scale from 1 to 5. A tempo of 1 is pretty much 1. K10 (sort of). A tempo of 5 is a Pente already created.

Now, usually, for most of the game, at least one player is at a tempo of 3 or 4, until someone wins the game. A tempo of 3 doesn't really refer to just a tria. It refers to the possibility of creating an open tria with the possibility of building off of that to create another tria, and so on for the forseeable future. A tempo of 4 refers to the possibility of creating a one-sided or gapped tessera with the possibility of creating another tessera, etc, for the forseeable future.

A quick example, you are P1 and after two moves the position is:
1. K10, T19
2. K13, T6

Now it is your turn to play your third move. While considering playing a tria to 3. K11, would this give you a tempo of 3? Well, not really. Even though this is a forcing move on THIS turn, you will have no way to create a forcing move on your NEXT turn (or the turn after that in the case of extending into a one-sided or gapped tessera), so therefore, this position still only gives you a tempo of 2. In fact, this is probably an even worse move than one such as 3. M10 because the third move tria will remain at a tempo of 2 after the FOURTH move, whereas a 2D shape such as the one created by 3. M10 yields a tempo of 2 after the third move, but with the possibility of increasing to a tempo of 3 on the fourth move!

Usually, a lot of moves in pente either initiate or respond to a move which creates a tempo of 3. For the player responding, there really are only two choices. First, you can defend against the threat (which could involve blocking, capturing across, and so on), OR you can respond with a move at a tempo of 4 of 5. A common situation occurs when a player puts together a series of trias, one after the other and finally gets to the point where they have created a 3x3 situation (still a tempo of 3, but potentially winning in two moves). However, the opponent is now able to respond with a tessera of his own, and then continues with a series of tesseras until winning the game! The 3x3 never had a chance to realize its potential because even though it appeared strong, it existed at a slower tempo than the opponent's winning string of tesseras.

In general, the offensive player is trying to maintain and eventually increase his tempo while simultaneously trying to prevent his opponent from exceeding his tempo. The defensive player tries to either reduce his opponent's tempo (the attacking line stalls out) or to maneuver into a situation where his tempo will exceed his opponent's tempo.

You don't really need to be thinking of terms like tempo or these various scoring values during the game -- in fact it probably would just make things more confusing. The point is that you should be constantly aware of the relative speeds at which various threats from each player can do their damage. At every move you should ask yourself -- what is my current tempo? What is my opponent's current tempo? If I select THIS move, what will be my new tempo? What will be my opponent's new tempo? (i.e., don't create a tria where your opponent can block it and simultaneously create his own tria! Unless you really know what you're doing...)

These same concepts can also be used, usually near the end game, when one or both players are in capture trouble, to refer to moves that will go on to win by captures...

One way that beginners often think is something like:

"Well, I'd like to play here, because if I can THEN just get a chance to play there, I'd really have something good going..."

Of course, if their opponent is any good, this line of reasoning almost always ends up just being too slow to be effective. The beginner is often left thinking -- darn it, I was just one move away ... but I just never got a chance to play my killer move...

that's just a common misunderstanding of the tempo happening within the game -- how fast the game generally progresses and how little time you usually have to get something going.

On the other hand, there is sort of a converse situation to this that intermediate, or even advanced players often miss. This commonly happens at or near the opening, but can actually crop up surprisingly late in the game as well. The situation I'm referring to is one in which you fail to realize that your opponent is not even at a tempo of 2 (i.e., he will not be able to get to a tempo of 3 on his next turn) and yet, you assume that if you do not play a forcing move that you will lose the game, and so you rush into a forcing move -- one that might lead you into a trap or into capture trouble or in some other way is simply not the best decision. If you were paying attention to tempo, you would have realized that you could have taken the opportunity to play a well-placed "building move", at a tempo of 2, and begin creating forcing moves on your NEXT turn.

So, to make a long story short (too late...), add "think about tempo" to your checklist of thought processes.

jasonb

Posts: 105
Registered: Jan 3, 2010
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 15, 2010, 9:18 PM

up2ng, Your description of tempo makes a lot of since. It has been part of my check list for a while now, I just never thought of a way to articulate it . . . kind of an autopilot thing I guess. Tempo determines who really has the initiative. I'm guessing that for the most part if not always, the player with the highest tempo score has the initiative. By "initiative", I mean the person with control of the game for the foreseeable future.

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 16, 2010, 4:00 AM

Right, in general this would determine who has the initiative -- although there are situations where that breaks down a bit. Such as if a player makes a tria and the opponent responds by attacking a pair and it becomes clear that 3 or 4 captures (and a win by captures) could be made before that tria can become a pente -- what would this say about the tempo or initiative? For me, I think there's just no reason to try to fit these terms to apply to every situation -- there are lots of concepts at play in Pente all at the same time and which ones really have priority at any moment, and the ability to identify these and execute based on this is all part of the game. Or how about the situation where a tria becomes a false threat after the opponent makes an extention which causes keystone problems? And so on...

But, being aware of the tempo and thinking about it each time you are thinking about your next move is important. It can help you figure out which types of moves you should be looking for. Like I mentioned previously, sometimes you don't need to be making a tria when a "building move" would be a better choice. Conversely, you need to know when you absolutely must begin making trias and forcing moves because your opponent will probably have a VCT situation if you don't.

It can also help beginner and intermediate players avoid a few common mistakes...

A couple examples:
Player 1 is dictating the action deep into the mid-game, creating several trias and progressing through a line. Then, he decides to make a tria or tessera which is blocked, creating a keystone pair. Now, the player, not understanding tempo, wastes a move by attacking the keystone pair -- but the move itself does not create a tria or other forcing situation -- tempo is lost and an alert opponent will ignore this capture threat and instead will create a threat of his own. After the capture is completed and the block reapplied, Player 1 is now forced to defend.

Or more generically, a capture is available, and often times a beginner will make this capture even when it creates no threat. This loses tempo and gives the opponent a chance to steal the initiative.

Thinking about the tempo allows you to eliminate moves like this from your decision making process so that you can move on and evaluate more aggressive options, when necessary.

zoeyk

Posts: 2,070
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 16, 2010, 11:21 AM

im going to do the forum rule of wait 72 hours before posting here. so that i don't fly off the handle at you up2ng. they need a emoticon that does a raised eyebrow. oh well.

z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,070
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 16, 2010, 10:53 PM

not exactly 72 hours, but close enough...

i will say that i enjoyed your tempo post, and thank you for not calling it initiative.

as far as you teaching me what a key stone capture is, im goina bite my toung right now on that. but ill say i have a feeling ill be making a new thread soon on the subject to talk about it. but don't come at me like i never heard of a 4's blocking stone being captured being referred to as a key stone capture. i know all to well about this. you might as well hold my hand and teach what a open 3 is at that point, ext...





jason said;
the player with the highest tempo score has the initiative. By "initiative", I mean the person with control of the game for the foreseeable future.




z;
no,...i refuse to use that usage. sigh..
initiative implies forcing moves whether winning or not,
tempo does not imply forcing moves, it also does not imply winning. they although can happen at the same time, are not inter changable terms. apples n oranges here.

as far as jason's usage of initiative,.. i knew the time was coming, we are goina have to dive back into that thread on initiative. i have been putting it off because of the resistance in the subject from up2ng and others that frustrated me so much last time.
there were some people on my side in that subject, such as nosovs for one example, which his opinion carries much weight in pente. and also chess theory supported my side as well. and i might need to break out my tom braunlich books when i get into this.

pretty much until we can tackle the initiative term and others related, every time in a topic and a term is used in a way that different people have different opinions for its usage, the discussion will just come to a stand still of frustration, for me any how. so i think settling this term will make future discussions more productive.

z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,070
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 16, 2010, 11:27 PM

to up2ng,

to clarify here,
when jason said K10, i misunderstood the context thinking he was thinking that K10 was a keystone in every game the entire game. which is not true generally.
he then realizes he could had named the keystone capture better and clarified such. it was simply a misunderstanding between me and him.

the debate over the usage of K10 as a keystone in general is another subject separate that im glad you brought up. and at some point i will go further into this with you.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,070
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 16, 2010, 11:30 PM

as far as me attacking jason, i don't see it.
although admittedly i have been in a grumpy mood lately, so i'll say its possible. although my prior posts to jason were not sugar coated, i don't seem to find an attack in there. but if i did, then im sorry and yes jason would not deserve such.

z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Pente - Understand vs Memorize
Posted: Nov 17, 2010, 2:23 AM

Zoey, I'm not sure why you are so upset by any of this.

I was simply pointing out that there are some terms that are already pretty well defined in regards to Pente, and examples of their usage can generally be found in old books and texts on the subject. I usually refer to the 80s newsletters and tournament recaps since they are accessible online, but Tom B's books are also a great resource as he was also a top player and conversed regularly with the other players who authored the newsletters and so I assume that they were all relatively consistant about how they were describing the game.

The term keystone is one such term. There should not be any need to interpret or redefine it. I was just pointing out how the term should be used, as it was coined long ago by masters of a golden era of the game.

To me, the term initiative is also used enough in the old texts that we should not be trying to define it from our own interpretation of what we think it should mean. It should just be researched and used as it has always been used. In the case of initiative, I think that we did discover some slight inconsistancies between the various texts which was one of the reasons why it was discussed in that thread at length, but in general we should simply stay consistant with how terms have always been used.

I also happen to remember how a couple of these types of terms were used here by the next generation of master players such as Gary Barnes (progambler), Dmitri King, etc, but of course such discussions are not documented. It would be challenging to find real documentation on such things, say, through the '90s, but there might still be some very old forums on the pente email servers, etc that might be useful if someone wishes to really dig into some research.

There are other terms, such as "adzi" which were not used in the 80s or even in the early days of pente.org. So, since there is no historical reference for such terms, there should be no problem in having current day top players discuss and agree upon the meaning and then begin to use it in their writings so that it catches on for future players.

Replies: 122   Views: 238,628   Pages: 9   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | Next ]
Back to Topic List
Topics: [ Previous | Next ]


Powered by Jive Software