Topic:
A (Fun) list of the Top 50 players in the World from a bunch of sites,
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Feb 2, 2004, 12:08 AM
by:
dufus
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Dec 16, 2001
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Re: A (Fun) list of the Top 50 players in the World from a bunch of sites,
Posted:
Jan 29, 2004, 5:42 AM
Hi I understand that this list is funny, but ... I can not understand why the DSG Tournaments are important then World Championships at PBM-server ? This is short time games where is a lot of mistakes - is not it ? I consider WC at PBM server as main tournaments, which show real strength, other tournaments are not important and it is not nessasery to show other players your "homes traps" which can shoot at main Competition. Garry Burns is prowd his two times titles of this E-mail WC Championships. I was number 2 at WC N2 after Garry Burns and N3 after Garry Burns and Ishtvan Virag, Now there is 4-th WC where the first three players also will be Victor Barykin, I and Ishtvan Virag. You can name all your Tournaments as World Championships but really they are only USA Championships. Real strong players are Garry Burns, Dmitriy King from USA, Ishtvan Virag (from Hungery) and Dmitry Krasnonosov, Igor Sinyov , Victor Barykin and I (from Russia). Regards Alexander Nosovsky
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Re: A (Fun) list of the Top 50 players in the World from a bunch of sites,
Posted:
Jan 30, 2004, 5:58 AM
Greetings,
It's good to hear from you, nosovs, and it's great to see some names of some of the greatest players from europe and russia as part of this discussion. All of us that frequent this DSG site are always wishing that you all would come and play more games here, but I can understand that the logistics often make this impractical.
I must also express that you are not alone in your viewpoints -- many players here at DSG agree with you about the merits of the big turn-based tournaments and how they show the greatest pente skill.
However, I must disagree strongly with this argument and I'll try to explain why. First of all, pente is a strategy genre board game. It was designed with an actual board and little stones where two people sit down together and play a game of strategy against one another in one sitting. I believe that the only reason why turn based competitions even exist is that while computers and internet technologies were evolving, it was simply easier to program software that plays turn based games over the network and thus, this was created first before the real time sites.
Besides the game being designed to be played in one sitting, it also only makes sense that the greatest skill exhibited in strategy game competition such as pente is shown in how well you do in a timed game played under pressure in one sitting. The World Championships of Professional Chess are not decided in games that are played over 6 months or a year -- they are played by two people getting together and sitting over a board for a few hours. Recently, chess champion Kasparov has played several professional matches against extremely powerful computer opponents. The fact that the game was timed at around 2 hours for 40 moves put Kasparov at an extreme disadvantage since the computer opponent does not understand stress and pressure and makes billions of calculations every second. Clearly if he had 6 months to play his games he would feel like he would have a better chance, but he never says that's how it should be -- it's a board game, just like pente -- and it should be played on a board. He makes millions of dollars in one sitting too which perhaps is partly why he prefers timed matches
In pente, like in chess, there's plenty of time and room for long weeks of analysis. Obviously, in order to rise to the top of a strategy game such as this, you must put in lots of time studying and analyzing and playing out games. However, I argue that the place for this is in a one player setting -- in other words, do your homework and your preparation for the competition -- but when the competition rolls around, it's time to put that preparation to the test. Doing lengthy analysis and preparation *during* a match in competition simply seems out of place. It's like taking the bar exam to become a lawyer. You study and you study and you study, but eventually you have to show up and take the test. You cannot ask for a take home test to be accomplished with open book resources to be completed over the course of a year -- it just doesn't work that way. So, in short, Superbowl Sunday is not Superbowl February, even lawyers have to take tests, and World Championship level pente competitions should be played in real time.
Lastly, I do agree with your point about our tournaments not being true world championship tournaments. But, if I'm arguing that real time internet pente is better for championship pente than turn-based, then I'd argue further that face to face play with a real board and stones is the best choice for a championship tournament. The last big "live" in person tournament held in the US attracted participants only from the USA and Canada. We are optimistically hoping that this will change and grow dramatically in the years to come. There is no restriction against anyone in the world from playing in these tournaments, it is just currently impractical. It would be fantastic to one day see all the top european, russian and american players and other players from other parts of the world all get together for world championship competition. Until then, we will have to settle for turn-based and real time internet tournaments.
Posts:
205
Registered:
Dec 16, 2001
From:
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Age:
56 Home page
Re: A (Fun) list of the Top 50 players in the World from a bunch of sites,
Posted:
Jan 31, 2004, 4:44 AM
Yes , I agree that this is different games to playing with the help of Internet (where you can use libruary, time for analizing, Internet software like DSG games history and to play at the Tournament hall "face to face" with time limit. It will give us different results, because more young players surely have advantage because they can calculate better and they can remember more variants better. Playing in Internet you need not remember all strongest variants in your mind. This is the biggest difference ! But real time tournaments on-line is not the same as face to face tournaments.
To play on-line from different time zones is unconvinient for one side, because Europe and USA are very differ in timing when there is 7 AM in Russia there is above 11PM in USA . For instance, sitting in Internet 1 hour at the morning when you need to go to your job is unconvinient, and siting in Internet 1 hour at the evening when you can see TV or just need rest, means that on-line Computer tournaments are only for fanats of Pente, it is more better to make move once a day (You need only 5 minutes per move in evening and 5 minutes per move in the morning). I think BrainKing and IYT is rather good. To have face to face tournaments means that you need go abroad, to get visa, flight, hotel ussially it is 1500-2000 USD which needs rather good reason to pay it.
As for Chess we have different situation - generally the Chess probably is the draw game if both sides play the best way and players of top level are professionals. The Go-moku is the sure win for fist player on the board 15x15 and more. I like to play Go-moku and often win as N2, but I know that this was a mistake of my opponent. But in real time game it is difficult to find the win. I feel Pente has the same problem as Go-moku, the first player probably has sure win. It not means that we can not play this rules. As Go-moku it is very difficult to win against strong opponent. As for half a year competition PBM WC : - seems I can win as P2 against Ishtvan Virag in the 4-th WC at PBM , so it is not a question of time, it is a question of quality "home traps".
I am vice-president of Renju International Federation (http:\\renju.nu) and we are organizing World Championships once each two years, it is face to face Competition and we united all five in a row players, to one family . The players from Japan, Sweden, China, Russia, Estonia, Korea, Taiwan and many others come to one place and decided who is the strongest. Last tine it was in August 2003 in Vadstena (Swden). The champion title won Tunnet Taimla from Estonia 15 years old boy. As I know Ishtvan Virag now is studing Renju in On-line-Renju-Class.
Re: A (Fun) list of the Top 50 players in the World from a bunch of sites,
Posted:
Jan 31, 2004, 6:50 AM
Dear Alexander D and Up Thanks for the great discussion about 2 different styles of play, this is exactly what I wanted when i thought of putting this list together. The History of pente came from set down ,get in your face, timed pente and thats still not Dweebos but it is close. Ive played in 3 or 4 City and regional tourneys in the late 70s and early 80s so the timed games were more important to me. The turn based games gives you sooo much time to think about a move but I think a better game at times. I still havent played alot of the Foreign players and Im sure there are top players that I missed. So lets agree to disagree and just enjoy this game the way it was ment to be. Funnnnnnnnn Thanks your friend Jayhawklov
nosovs and up2ng debate
Posted:
Jan 31, 2004, 7:35 AM
I think both versions of play are important. But, the correspondence games at Iyt, Brain King and Pbem are most often won by skill and a thorough understanding of the game, which i think makes it a better indicator of skill than games at Dsg. Dsg games can be won by careless errors that have little to do with skill.
Anyone who has spent hours on a tough turn based game knows how satisfying it is to find a win in a seemingly hopeless situation. At dsg I usually just hope for my opponent to have a momentary concentration lapse. I still enjoy them very much, but games at the other sites should carry more weight in the rankings.
The fact that Pente started ina box with stones is largely irrelevant to the discussion. All games evolve.
I do hope we can get the in-person tournaments big enough to make it worthwhile for players outside the U.S. to attend. Our goal for 2004 is $2000 in prize money. If all who expressed an interest in going, do attend, we'll get there.
Message was edited by: dmitriking at Jan 31, 2004 1:35 AM
