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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted:
Nov 13, 2010, 2:14 AM
the following is a copy and pasted table conversation on adzi. niobium zoeyk up2ng.
zoeyk (14:18): can you help me to articulate adzi? zoeyk (14:19): i understand it but i am very bad at articulating zoeyk (14:19): and i heard you are good at this niobium (14:19): I'm not sure what you mean by adzi zoeyk (14:19): ok niobium (14:19): 1. once you mentioned its an attack disregarding captures zoeyk (14:19): hmm niobium (14:20): 2. and it's a bit like initative niobium (14:20): that's all I've read in the forum zoeyk (14:20): i will post another game example soon niobium (14:20): ok zoeyk (14:20): nosovs vs chessik niobium (14:21): btw. an AI doesn't follow an idea/thinking like adzii zoeyk (14:21): there is a 3 stone sequence which is adzi zoeyk (14:21): yes i thought so niobium (14:21): you just have to include the components from adzi for each level of the tree niobium (14:21): so among many threats and idea for an attack /defense you will also have the parts of adzi niobium (14:22): I mean that at the second move, niobium (14:22): the first move of the adzi will be split also in not adzi lines zoeyk (14:22): adzi is a tempo of motion,.. not a single position niobium (14:23): I think I understand it more or less, but you don't have to define it for an AI as a sequence zoeyk (14:23): it is tempo with aditional concepts and limitations i think zoeyk (14:24): a style zoeyk (14:24): of tempo niobium (14:24): the will come up with 10-30 lines, and 1-2 will be adzi sequencies niobium (14:24): +AI zoeyk (14:24): ok niobium (14:24): but they will be adzis 'accidentally" zoeyk (14:24): yes niobium (14:24): like painting many pictures, zoeyk (14:25): unless the AI's search is limited to make faster niobium (14:25): and one of the will be an interesting one zoeyk (14:25): ok niobium (14:25): so you can identify the adzi backwards zoeyk (14:25): hmm zoeyk (14:25): interesting niobium (14:26): like a beginner playing random moves, zoeyk (14:26): ide like to know more on how to do adzi backwards niobium (14:26): but accidentally he plays an adzi sequence niobium (14:26): and an expert player sees it, but the beginner played it accidentally niobium (14:26): the AI is like 100 beginners at the same time zoeyk (14:26): ok, but i dont remember that happening before zoeyk (14:27): but it is possible niobium (14:27): have you posted that game? zoeyk (14:27): nosovs vs chessik? niobium (14:27): yes zoeyk (14:27): not yet niobium (14:27): ok zoeyk (14:27): i will do it in a few minutes niobium (14:27): is nosovs black? zoeyk (14:27): it was a very interesting game for more than one reason zoeyk (14:28): nosovs is white zoeyk (14:28): and nosovs loses niobium (14:28): is it a bk game? zoeyk (14:28): chessik found exploit of masters common 5th zoeyk (14:28): at bk zoeyk (14:28): using a 3 stone tempo squence niobium (14:28): ok, then I can't find it here, chessik name made me suspicios niobium (14:29): he also plays c6 at bk zoeyk (14:29): makes 2 pairs , they are offered, and becuase offered the 3 is able to be made and work,.. where with out the 2 pair offered the 3 before fails niobium (14:30): I don't understand zoeyk (14:30): it slows down white just enough to jocky into a working position that before failed niobium (14:31): btw. an AI has no feeling for tempo or pressure zoeyk (14:31): a tempo sequence,..... make 3 now = fail,... but,... non locally,.. offer pair 1, offer pair 2,... now make 3,.. now same failing 3 is not falling,.. now is sure win niobium (14:32): sacrificing captures for maintaining initiative? zoeyk (14:32): becuase whites tempo slowed down by 2 offered pairs,... just a millisecond enough to make the 3 work niobium (14:33): ok niobium (14:33): and what if white doesn't capture? zoeyk (14:34): you will get it when i post,... but you will need to study both make 3 with and with out pairs to see difference zoeyk (14:34): it is very not obvious zoeyk (14:34): becuase results not emediate niobium (14:34): let's put it on a game board (14:34) * game started * zoeyk (14:34): n10 zoeyk (14:35): n12 zoeyk (14:35): m12 niobium (14:35): sure win white zoeyk (14:35): L12 niobium (14:35): although I don't like m12 zoeyk (14:35): ok zoeyk (14:35): important to understand zoeyk (14:35): 2 things zoeyk (14:35): here zoeyk (14:36): both N14 and O14 are the popular zoeyk (14:36): for whites next zoeyk (14:36): and but zoeyk (14:36): N14 is loss zoeyk (14:36): O14 is win niobium (14:36): ok zoeyk (14:37): chessiks showed us zoeyk (14:37): so nosovs does N14 niobium (14:37): I like n14 zoeyk (14:37): extend zoeyk (14:37): K12 niobium (14:38): I don't like that move zoeyk (14:38): P13 zoeyk (14:38): here if black plays K11 black loses zoeyk (14:38): the 3 doesnt work zoeyk (14:38): 3 fails niobium (14:38): ok zoeyk (14:39): M14 zoeyk (14:39): but now the 3 works zoeyk (14:39): 3 wins zoeyk (14:39): subtle difference zoeyk (14:39): this is adzi i think zoeyk (14:39): it is not apparrent yet zoeyk (14:39): they differences dont show for many many moves down zoeyk (14:40): maybe i forgot to extend J8? cant remember if needed zoeyk (14:40): we will see niobium (14:40): ok zoeyk (14:40): ahh zoeyk (14:41): ok needed zoeyk (14:41): back niobium (14:41): back to where? (14:41) * undo requested * (14:41) * undo accepted * (14:41) * undo requested * (14:41) * undo accepted * (14:41) * undo requested * (14:41) * undo accepted * (14:41) * undo requested * (14:41) * undo accepted * (14:41) * undo requested * (14:41) * undo accepted * (14:41) * undo requested * (14:41) * undo accepted *
niobium (14:43): so the question is,
niobium (14:43): is an AI able to find something like this?
zoeyk (14:44): yes niobium (14:44): at move 8 not to make the 3? niobium (14:45): it depends how you define the threats to be examined niobium (14:45): if you define an open two a threat, then the comp will examine the following lines at mobe 8 zoeyk (14:46): yes niobium (14:46): g14, h13, k11, m9, n8, l9, m9, j9, o9, zoeyk (14:46): ide like you to help me to articulate the definition niobium (14:46): o11, p11, n13.... zoeyk (14:47): i understand things but im terrible at verbalizing understandings niobium (14:47): that means the tree is split in about 15 lines niobium (14:47): and one of the is adzi niobium (14:47): but seeing the win at this point depends on the depth of the tree zoeyk (14:47): do you agree black wins here? niobium (14:48): I don't like 4. m12 other than that, I have to look at the position zoeyk (14:48): it was the popular niobium (14:48): I don't like k12 either zoeyk (14:48): again was the poular niobium (14:49): I like something like k14 better than k12 zoeyk (14:49): the win for black was not obvious zoeyk (14:49): i understand there was better zoeyk (14:50): i agree with you,.. but it shouldnt take away from the example and point here i think niobium (14:50): you could also attack o12 before extending to a 4 niobium (14:50): ok zoeyk (14:50): i think it is beautiful oportunity to express adzi zoeyk (14:50): whether perfect play or no niobium (14:51): it's a bit similar to chess niobium (14:51): like when you have to get rid of a piece first, before you can play something zoeyk (14:51): yes thank you
zoeyk (14:51): was exactly what i said when i saw it
zoeyk (14:51): chessik used chess tempo tactic to solve
zoeyk (14:52): offer material to improve tempo non locally zoeyk (14:52): yes? niobium (14:52): i wouldn' call it a tempo zoeyk (14:52): again, yes zoeyk (14:52): if just tempo than not adzi niobium (14:53): it's a distraction niobium (14:53): or a double attack zoeyk (14:53): its slows down the defuse function to stop the 3 threat zoeyk (14:53): like putting weights on the opponents ankles niobium (14:54): its a bit similar, when you attack at varios parts in gomoku, niobium (14:54): and the two attacks are not enough separately, niobium (14:54): but in case you can connect them, it's enough zoeyk (14:54): yes ok zoeyk (14:55): we can publish this game to put in thread for example? niobium (14:55): sure zoeyk (14:56): what is best place to end it to have it be clear? niobium (14:56): then I have to fin a win now but will be difficult with so many possible captures niobium (14:56): well, you could post it twice with different 8th moves zoeyk (14:56): so stop at 8th?
niobium (14:59): l13 seems ok, but he would have 5 captures
zoeyk (15:02): what should we do? zoeyk (15:03): to make clear example for the thread? niobium (15:03): it's not really clear niobium (15:04): for me it's not obvious, that it was blacks plan to slow down the game zoeyk (15:04): so how many different ways to play the adzi sequence to make clear then? zoeyk (15:04): no point in beautiful example if not made clear niobium (15:05): for me it seems white made himself an other threat, while not defending an other niobium (15:05): so for me it's not an adzi for black, but an owngoal for white zoeyk (15:05): owngoal?
niobium (15:06): yes, it's like he forced black to make an other threat zoeyk (15:06): do you think whites 6th can win?
zoeyk (15:07): O14 6th was sure win for white,... i say N14 is sure loss for whites 6th niobium (15:07): ok zoeyk (15:08): so after 6th white had no good options i think
niobium (15:08): which game uses the word adzi? zoeyk (15:09): go,... but spelled AJI zoeyk (15:09): japanese zoeyk (15:09): in russia spelled adzi zoeyk (15:09): GO is AJI zoeyk (15:09): also found in renju books niobium (15:10): one sec. zoeyk (15:10): as adzi (15:10) * jaqueline_ has entered the table * niobium (15:10): ok, I found it, but it's still not clear zoeyk (15:10): Go Renju Ninuki-Renju maybe Gomoku actually aswell
niobium (15:11): it's a dead stone with latent potential zoeyk (15:11): in GO,... but translated into pente can be different niobium (15:12): ok, I just try to understand what they mean zoeyk (15:12): nosovs is the one to translate it into pente,.. he slightly changes the usage becuase pente is different niobium (15:12): how it is different from a simple change in moves order? zoeyk (15:12): these are good questions,.... need to ask nosovs maybe zoeyk (15:13): you can post with questions and comments,.. will be helpful niobium (15:13): I mean, at move 8 niobium (15:13): can you identify n13 as adzi, niobium (15:13): or just later, when you see the win zoeyk (15:13): nosovs was clear that,... adzi is not a move zoeyk (15:14): but can be found in a sequence zoeyk (15:14): and is a concept zoeyk (15:14): used in different ways niobium (15:14): ok, but for me it seems very natural, nothing special zoeyk (15:14): ok zoeyk (15:14): hmm niobium (15:15): you should ask chessik also zoeyk (15:16): well zoeyk (15:16): chessik is chess player zoeyk (15:16): adzi is nosovs concept zoeyk (15:16): so better to ask nosovs niobium (15:16): it's a concept used by nosovs also niobium (15:16): not nosovs' concept zoeyk (15:17): in GO not his,.. but in pente yes,.... niobium (15:17): ok niobium (15:17): he was the first to give it a name zoeyk (15:17): becuase he brought to pente,.. and translated its usage to fit the game zoeyk (15:18): he didnt invent the name adzi zoeyk (15:18): AJI from japan,.. and ADZI spelling maybe another russian did it niobium (15:18): there should be an english word for it zoeyk (15:18): yes zoeyk (15:19): nosovs says ADZI is the russian spelling that makes the identical sound as how japan pronunciates it,... the sound niobium (15:19): ok zoeyk (15:19): so,.. if i knew how it sounded,... i could do a english spelling,... but i have no clue how it sounds zoeyk (15:20): this is the problem niobium (15:20): people would still not understand what do you mean by it zoeyk (15:20): true zoeyk (15:21): the bigger and more important problem zoeyk (15:21): so can you help on this adzi project? niobium (15:21): how? zoeyk (15:21): well if you dont know how then i guess it means you can not niobium (15:22): richardiii was tru abour private games zoeyk (15:22): i needed you to get it,.. and explain better than me niobium (15:22): I will think about it, chess should have terms for similar situations zoeyk (15:23): before we name it,.. it must be proporly defined both in visual example but more importantly in words niobium (15:24): ok zoeyk (15:24): any ways,.. we put this game as possible candidate,.. and if not adzi,.. then we can define the difference niobium (15:24): it is difficult to transfer a term from one to an other zoeyk (15:24): yes niobium (15:24): +game zoeyk (15:24): you lose some meaning,. and gain other meaning zoeyk (15:24): in the middle you have only portion of similarity niobium (15:25): in pente you have no dead stones like in go zoeyk (15:25): ok zoeyk (15:25): this shows loss of meaning niobium (15:26): is this the only game where you found this technique? zoeyk (15:26): no zoeyk (15:26): adzi shown for gomoku and ninuki-renju in nosovs book niobium (15:26): then you should put as many games in the forum as possible niobium (15:27): what kind of book? zoeyk (15:27): umm zoeyk (15:27): one sec zoeyk (15:27): let me find the link niobium (15:27): ok zoeyk (15:27): the book is online
niobium (15:27): renju is more similar to pente
zoeyk (15:31): there is another for gomoku i need to locate niobium (15:31): ok zoeyk (15:31): but here is for pente/ninuki renju zoeyk (15:31): http://nosovsky.narod.ru/Pente.zip
niobium (15:34): I found his definition for adzi
zoeyk (15:34): ok zoeyk (15:34): and what u think?
zoeyk (15:34): i think he was too vague in his meaning niobium (15:35): not caring about the opponent making a capture, but mainttain the attack niobium (15:36): in that case, in our game k11 is the adzi move niobium (15:36): leaving n13 o12 undefended niobium (15:37): somthing like this: niobium (15:38): in a chessgame your queen could be captured, but you keep attacking with checks zoeyk (15:38): ok zoeyk (15:38): so this is adzi? zoeyk (15:39): offering material advantage to maintain winning tempo? niobium (15:39): I think the key is, there has to be possible captures zoeyk (15:39): yes zoeyk (15:39): indeed niobium (15:40): adn no extending or capturing zoeyk (15:40): pairs are implied by nature here niobium (15:40): but attacking elsewhere zoeyk (15:40): but the offered material needs to be a crusial role in allowing the attack else where to work zoeyk (15:40): yes? niobium (15:41): yes zoeyk (15:41): ok niobium (15:41): wedge would be a good example zoeyk (15:42): yes ok zoeyk (15:42): but not best example niobium (15:42): or nosovs' n8 trick zoeyk (15:42): but yes niobium (15:42): leaving many pairs undefended zoeyk (15:43): N8, N11,P10,K11 ext ? niobium (15:43): yes zoeyk (15:44): yes zoeyk (15:44): but this is more local,.. the attack is not else where niobium (15:44): when you have your definition ready, you should ask nosovs again niobium (15:45): I think the key here is m14 niobium (15:45): that is a waisted move zoeyk (15:45): there was no ther good move niobium (15:45): at that point white loses the initiative zoeyk (15:46): white didnt have any other good move tho niobium (15:46): yes, I mean that is the turning point zoeyk (15:46): any move was same zoeyk (15:46): no zoeyk (15:46): 6th was turning point zoeyk (15:46): was the error zoeyk (15:46): any 9th move for white was terrible niobium (15:47): from m14 white is on the defensive zoeyk (15:47): if not M14 then what great move? i see nothing zoeyk (15:47): no alternate choice to improve 9th zoeyk (15:47): just same bad positions niobium (15:48): its difficult to define something from the angle of both players
(15:48) * up2ng has entered the table * zoeyk (15:48): hi up2 up2ng (15:48): hey how's it going? zoeyk (15:49): good up2ng (15:49): some actual game playing happening here? wow! zoeyk (15:49): we are having adzi discussion up2ng (15:49): ah zoeyk (15:49): this game was attempted example to use niobium (15:49): but it's a bit too complicated zoeyk (15:50): whites 6th was error,...blacks 6th 8th 10th was adzi sequence to exploit zoeyk (15:50): 2 pairs needed to be offered for the K11 making 3 to work niobium (15:50): I have a position for adzi in my mind zoeyk (15:50): ok niobium (15:51): what should we do with this game? zoeyk (15:51): publish game here is good i think up2ng (15:52): you sure black couldn't do anything? zoeyk (15:52): they can see cap troubles with L13 now zoeyk (15:52): dean zoeyk (15:52): its black win on 6th zoeyk (15:52): whites 6th is white loss
zoeyk (15:53): this is chessik's P2 that defeated nosovs white turn based zoeyk (15:53): ok nio zoeyk (15:53): what is your idea? zoeyk (15:54): give me losing color zoeyk (15:54): ill take turn to resign up2ng (15:54): so what is it about adzi that y'all are trying to figure out? niobium (15:54): no need for that, we can cancel it zoeyk (15:54): we need to define it
(15:54) * game started * zoeyk (15:54): adzi very hard to define here niobium (15:54): I think it's something quite simple, zoeyk (15:55): probably niobium (15:55): n10 zoeyk (15:55): but other similar things not adzi but seem like make it confusing up2ng (15:55): did you read my post? it looks to me like nosovs already defined it and it's not really that advanced... zoeyk (15:55): ok niobium (15:55): l12 zoeyk (15:55): i didnt read yet niobium (15:56): m10 niobium (15:56): l10 up2ng (15:56): probably just a case of confusing terminology, people are thinking of different things -- seems to be a lot of that around here lol niobium (15:56): h11 zoeyk (15:56): yes niobium (15:56): for me this is also adzi zoeyk (15:56): is why its good to talk about zoeyk (15:57): yes but,..... black loses here up2ng (15:57): which part are you thinking is adzi? niobium (15:57): leaving the two undefended up2ng (15:58): ah, ok, to me that has nothing to do with adzi lol oh well, hopefully nosovs will chime in again and fill us in zoeyk (15:58): up2ng,.. you didnt read other nosovs definition in his book,.. i didnt post it yet up2ng (15:58): i'm not sure why we need these fancy terms for all this stuff hehe
zoeyk (15:58): nio zoeyk (15:58): adzi should be a winning combo?
zoeyk (15:59): or just similar idea? up2ng (15:59): i'll see if i can dial something up real quick on a board... niobium (15:59): let me undo zoeyk (15:59): becuase black wins this zoeyk (15:59): no zoeyk (15:59): sorry zoeyk (15:59): black Loses this zoeyk (15:59): this is white win niobium (15:59): yes niobium (15:59): after o9 it's adzi for white with h12 zoeyk (16:00): so although i agree it really does match adzi visually,..... does it require to be a win to count as adzi? niobium (16:00): I think adzi is a very simple something
niobium (16:00): I mean my o9 instead of o12 niobium (16:01): it's just a concept, not a winning sequence zoeyk (16:01): ahh zoeyk (16:01): ok this is important to point out then zoeyk (16:01): does not imply winning tempo zoeyk (16:01): interesting up2ng (16:02): can i jump in with someone and show you an example of what i think adzi is? i have one ready
zoeyk (16:02): in GO they speak of good AJI and also bad AJI,......i found this important to review nio up2ng (16:02): ok
(16:02) * game started * niobium (16:02): ok up2ng (16:03): k13 up2ng (16:03): m11 up2ng (16:03): m13 is the adzi up2ng (16:03): yes up2ng (16:03): that's the move up2ng (16:03): continuation of threat, ignoring the opporutnity to capture up2ng (16:03): leading to a win zoeyk (16:04): hmm zoeyk (16:04): this is slightly different again than i had imagined up2ng (16:04): that's what i thought nosovs was saying when you quoted him -- although maybe his quote was incomplete i don't know -- we should ask him to elaborate zoeyk (16:04): so many different examples zoeyk (16:04): too vague zoeyk (16:04): frustrating me it is niobium (16:05): for me it's quite clear up2ng (16:05): is this like what you are thinking niobium or is this not it? up2ng (16:05): this last move to m13... niobium (16:05): yes, it is zoeyk (16:05): well nio can you make a post in the forum about this? niobium (16:05): refusing a capture for the initiative niobium (16:05): as simple as that zoeyk (16:05): but is it limited to that? up2ng (16:05): i'm not sure about the other concept of leaving your own pair undefended -- i think that's a seperate concept, but also important... zoeyk (16:06): what about offering material to gain attack in other place? niobium (16:06): maybe that's the most complicated adzi possible niobium (16:06): and this is a simple one
up2ng (16:07): i thought it was about the possibility of capturing, NOT the possibility of being captured zoeyk (16:07): it seems adzi is not caring about material loss in order to maintain tempo,. up2ng (16:07): but i could be wrong -- i really had not heard of the term adzi before you quoted nosovs use of it up2ng (16:07): both are important concepts zoeyk (16:08): dean niobium (16:08): only nosovs knows what he means with adzi zoeyk (16:08): it comes from japans word AJI zoeyk (16:08): adzi is russian spelling zoeyk (16:08): google AJI to get more literature zoeyk (16:08): nosovs told me zoeyk (16:09): here in nosovs online book he talks about adzi zoeyk (16:09): http://nosovsky.narod.ru/Pente.zip up2ng (16:09): ok i'll check it out -- i'm not sure that pente traditionally used such terms -- all these guys come from renju backgrounds etc... but it might be valid to use such terms i guess zoeyk (16:09): new nosovs quotes if you read niobium (16:09): @up2ng, yes this is the main adzi concept, zoeyk (16:09): http://nosovsky.narod.ru/Pente.zip up2ng (16:09): he likes to talk about "atari" a lot also niobium (16:09): but for me leaving my stones undefended for an atatck is very similar zoeyk (16:09): atari values yes up2ng (16:10): i just use other terms for the same thing like keystone capture, etc up2ng (16:10): not sure if those are equivalent i can't remember lol up2ng (16:10): hey guys sorry i gotta run i'm on baby duty zoeyk (16:10): it is combination of threat of capture plus other levels of threat to make specific cap threat values that vary in level becuase of combo
up2ng (16:10): ttyl (16:11) * up2ng has left the table *
zoeyk (16:11): hmm zoeyk (16:11): can i post our conversation in the thread nio? niobium (16:11): sure zoeyk (16:11): ok
niobium (16:12): you could make a distinction between - niobium (16:13): 1. instead of capturing , keeping the initiative, niobium (16:13): 2. intead of defending a capture, keeping the initiative niobium (16:14): for me those two are equivalent, but 1. is more close to nosovs definition zoeyk (16:18): ahh zoeyk (16:18): yes zoeyk (16:18): very good point
zoeyk (16:18): did u see jasonb's example? he asked if its adzi and i said no to him zoeyk (16:19): was i wrong? niobium (16:19): I don't know, I haven't seen his post yet. niobium (16:19): When a thread gets too long, I don't read all comments usually zoeyk (16:21): ok zoeyk (16:21): its in the adzi thread zoeyk (16:21): in analysis zoeyk (16:21): page one niobium (16:22): jasonb vs guest? zoeyk (16:22): yes niobium (16:23): He could be right niobium (16:24): 6. n8 niobium (16:25): In case adzi is that simple like we are thinking, then he is right. zoeyk (16:25): i was afraid youd say that,... examples like that make it look like begginers stuff,.... not what i had in mind zoeyk (16:26): if they get stuck on thinking its that example they wont be trained to see the complex stuff tho niobium (16:26): you should ask nosovs about that game zoeyk (16:26): yes i suppose so zoeyk (16:29): it is stuff like this that puts me at a dead stand still on the pente book im trying to write zoeyk (16:29): its frustrating zoeyk (16:29): and i feel helpless while waiting for others input niobium (16:29): don't reveal everything zoeyk (16:30): well zoeyk (16:30): i have stuff scattered all ofer the forum,...scattered zoeyk (16:30): the book brings it all together organized zoeyk (16:30): they are buying the organized version zoeyk (16:31): and niobium (16:31): in gomoku (free) a beginner can beat a master after a week of play zoeyk (16:31): there are some things i hold back on niobium (16:31): I hope that will not come in pente zoeyk (16:31): free? niobium (16:32): with no opening rules niobium (16:32): it's called free gomoku zoeyk (16:32): oh you mean your scared ide give too many short cuts? zoeyk (16:32): thede advance faster than naturally? niobium (16:33): something like that zoeyk (16:33): yes my book would do that perhaps
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted:
Nov 13, 2010, 10:29 PM
Well, I've been hesitant to add to this thread since I'm not a Go player, but after following it for awhile and also checking in with how the term is used in Go, I think I can perhaps help out a bit here. This definition will still need a bit of refining, but... I believe adzi can be broadly defined in pente as "a situation in which one or more threatened pairs - either of one's own or of the opponent's" (these would be dead stones in Go) "are, over the course of one or more moves, played away from or temporarily abandoned with a new stone(s) played in some manner in which those "dead stones" are still a factor in order to improve one's overall board position or threats."
This can be as simple as the refusal of an early pair trade or as complicated as some of the later examples in this thread (which I have a tough time believing an AI would be able to exploit - as in Nosovs vs. Chessik).
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted:
Nov 13, 2010, 11:10 PM
thanks watsu. yes thats pretty right on i think. and yes i also have a hard time believing a AI could had played like chessik did here. one of the most impressive combos ive seen.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted:
Nov 13, 2010, 11:20 PM
Here's a good example of when Adzi should have been employed further but was not, from a famous game- with the correct move for P1 being 14. O13, not 14. N9, which loses P1 tempo and thus loses the game (and $4500 and a trip to California).
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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted:
Nov 13, 2010, 11:22 PM
ahhh ok so nosovs did a different 13th. that was his mistake then. but understandably so, it was not intuitive. im pretty damnn sure after chessik's pair pair 3 combo nosovs was having some doubts of winning.
but aside from this new thing i just realized, it still is a great example in theory. becuase this type of stuff can happen where it actually works. so the point still stands that complex adzi is real.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted:
Nov 14, 2010, 12:03 AM
any how, so in that opening as i said before. whites 6th is the turning point. N14 is loss, and O14 is win, for white. but we always thought both were the same perfect play. N14 was a common P1 line for masters. chessiks has decimated N14. so now O14 is the way to go. will be very interesting if the same tactics could stop O14 too,.. but im doubting it will happen.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted:
Nov 15, 2010, 11:57 PM
The game is two dimensional, geometric. Aji is a point of turning within it, a gathering of traction and momentum. The loser looks back, like Hansel and Gretel, at the crumbs missed...
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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted:
Nov 16, 2010, 11:54 AM
ahh thats a neat quote. wonder where you got it from.
so, i think that applies a little more to Go than pente tho.
because in pente aji, or adzi, doesn't imply a turning point. it can simply be a continuation of winning flow, whether tempo increases or not. its a little more like a tactic or style of moving, than a flip flop of whos in the lead.
the gathering of traction and momentum i can agree with. the loser looking back at bread crumbs missed im not sure applies to pente. because if the adzi user is P1 using perfect play, then there wasn't really any missed crumbs to had been used for P2 to win. the bread crumb thing seems to imply P1 didn't play perfectly before or while using adzi tactics.
this of course is just my opinion, as we are still trying to formulate this term into pente. and when moving a term from one game to another it usually becomes altered in meaning some how ive noticed.
but very interesting quote, thank you for sharing it valley boy.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
