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watsu

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A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 18, 2010, 12:26 AM

Ukie and I decided to play a game of boat poof pente today (by mutually agreeing that that was what we were playing)and an amazing position resulted. Unfortunately, I was showing her why P2 couldn't win in boat from the moves she suggested, but the move ended the game in regular poof pente. White has a sure win with 20. M11, ignoring black's non threatening threes and winning with the following sequence- 20. .. M9 21. M14 M13 22. N14- black cannot prevent the fifth capture or send the game into overtime up the by making the fifth capture poof white's stones...



ETA:
haanng on, lol
I just saw that blacks reply of 22. K11 prolongs...
truly I have no idea of whose game this on is at this point... white probably has control if played carefully, since the option for the threatening J7 J6 K7 sequence is also present... very tricky to come to a definitive answer on this one in a timed game.


If I can get a new board up to show it (currently having issues) I'll show the improved position for black which results with 20. ... F8 21. E7


Message was edited by: watsu at May 17, 2010 7:16 PM


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watsu

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 18, 2010, 1:32 AM





Corrected to 20. G12 for white to prevent that move by black


Message was edited by: watsu at May 17, 2010 8:46 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at May 17, 2010 8:49 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 18, 2010, 10:12 AM

ok, with out going too far into detail here, first off nice position.
i think we need to address some rules here tho.
in boat pente 5 captures finishes the game. it looks like in this line that the game draws if 5 caps wins.
in poof 5 caps doesn't win? this needs to be cleared up before attempting to analyze this.
to be honest, i don't want to remove any of boat-pente's rules, adding to it is ok tho. so i hope to agree that 5 caps wins, and that the theory for boat poof will be that in perfect play the game will always end in a draw even tho white has the advantage. this would be reflective of chess perhaps, which i find intriguing.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 18, 2010, 10:22 AM

also, the simultaneous cap and poof i am having trouble with.
this just seems like a Paradox.
if the stones poof, then they aren't there to cap,
and,
if the stones cap, then they aren't there to poof.
should this be allowed?
what came first he chicken or the egg kinda thing.
maybe moving into that situation can be a restricted move.
this would prevent a draw from happening.
or perhaps come to agree that in that situation, either the stones cap or poof one or the other.

or maybe im wrong and the way the board was programmed to do that is the best way? im just not that experienced in poof i guess.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 18, 2010, 7:27 PM

Zoey,
A tied capture position in which both sides have at least 10 captured stones is considered neither a draw nor a win/loss, but rather it becomes sort of like overtime in the sense of play continues until one side or the other makes a Pente or gains at least a one stone advantage over the other side. Had this particular position not resolved to 10 stones for each side, a 10 stone result would have won the game. I'm speaking in terms of stones rather than captures here, because in poof pente it is possible to poof three or even five of one's own stones if a position is a poof in multiple directions. Without going at length into poof history, I'll just say that the restricted move option was considered a long time ago and discarded in favor of allowing a sacrifice play into a poof position to occur. Since only in perhaps 1 out of ten instances is such a sacrifice advisable and since perhaps nine of ten of the advisable positions involve the potential to capture of the opponent's pieces we decided that the resolution was to have the poof and capture occur simultaneously.

"the theory for boat poof will be that in perfect play the game will always end in a draw even tho white has the advantage."

This is an extremely radical statement to make, IMO, considering that boat pente is a less complex variant of ninuki renju (no overline restrictions, no double three restrictions) and considering that renju (not ninuki)without swaps is a proven player one win despite restrictions for only the first player of overline and no 3x3 (and a smaller board, which favors the second player by making a draw more likely). Essentially, it is as if you are saying all renju players needed to do (while developing the game) in order to reach a draw in perfect play status was to add captures- with five caps winning and allowing captures across imperfect fives. However, we think we know from pente that five captures alone is insufficient to prevent a sure p1 win in perfect play. So, in this case, the capture across a perfect five is apparently the perfect lever which switches these games from sure p1 wins to sure p1 draws.
Why then was Ninuki Renju abandoned by the Japanese after having a professional society of players after a decade or so of play and why did renju need to implement swaps in order to reach the drawable games level in top play?
You'll have to go a long way to prove your above statement is correct, IMO.
I would venture a counter statement of the following- without swaps, no 5 in a row game without MAJOR first player restrictions of some kind can be considered a draw in perfect play on a 15x15 or larger board. Finding such precise restrictions without tilting the game in favor of a sure win for the second player is exceedingly difficult. Games and variants which we already know of which I I contend are currently a sure p1 win with perfect play include the variants of Pente such as boat, poof, keryo, G, boat poof, poof keryo, etc., gomoku (even with tournament rules), renju without swaps and ninuki renju...


Message was edited by: watsu at May 18, 2010 8:35 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
jhs55

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 18, 2010, 7:50 PM

OMG !, I am lost at looking at this, sure makes keryo look like childes play, I am all for making this an al out regular game here

i owe riii 15 cases of beer !...dang man...
watsu

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 18, 2010, 8:22 PM

Dweebo talked about implementing combined games at one point awhile back, so it is on his agenda, but I think he's too busy for us to count on it any time soon. However, he does surpise us a few times a year with cool new site upgrades, so maybe...

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 19, 2010, 2:46 AM

in game 2 for the example at moves 25,both sides get 5 caps each simultaneously. now going into over time is a matter of opinion. it comes down to the rules agreed upon.
if its stated that 5 caps ends the game period, then it would be a tie. the next question will be, could white had avoided this by playing differently in the opening.
if so then white wins in perfect play. but if not, then my theory stands correct.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 19, 2010, 3:37 AM

Well- A. that's a uniquely poof feature, the simultaneous 5-5 result- which can only happen if one concedes that not only are poofs able to be played into but also any captures taken by the placing of that stone are counted (no chicken or egg paradox allowed) and B. by general consensus of Pente players at Brainking prior to poof implementation here there should be no draws allowed in poof; play continues...
also, C. I very highly doubt that a draw- should it be allowed in this particular case- would ever constitute perfect poof play by P1. However, if anyone can ever demonstrate one single perfect play line by white which ends in a tied capture count at 10 (or 15 for keryo poof) in any combination of poof + whatever, i'll happily concede your point, Z.

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zoeyk

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 19, 2010, 7:46 AM

watsu;
B. by general consensus of Pente players at Brainking prior to poof implementation here there should be no draws allowed in poof; play continues...




zoey;
ok, and i think i got that drift in your earlier post,
but what i propose is a hypothetical idea that doesn't seem to care one way or the other what players consensus is, because, it was hypothetical, thus consensus is irrelevant here, although good to know none the less.


as for C.
your saying you doubt my theory is correct, but, my theory is only that it is a possibility yet to be disproved, and in that regard you will be hard pressed to try and prove it impossible. i agree that the logic of probability leans in your direction. i just like to be thorough before dismissing potentials is all.

i think we agree, although that might not seem clear.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 19, 2010, 9:37 PM

I agree that I'll be hard pressed to prove it impossible. I also thing someone(s) (and/or AI) would have to do a whole lot of work to prove it true... the main thing, I guess, is while if we say it is a draw then draws would exist and be possible within the game, however poof are like keryo in that they add complexity and defensive options into the game but do not fundamentally change that advantage of placing the first stone. Both sides can use the rules in their strategies.

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zoeyk

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 21, 2010, 11:25 AM

i have no dispute with a stone going first in those 2 games plus several others (not all, had to say not all or alison would jump on that hehe) being a clear advantage.
how ever as i think you know, and as up2ng has pointed out in the past, in chess white has the advantage, but this advantage is not enough to force a win, just only a draw, much like tic tac toe. by saying a game ends in a draw does not mean that both sides are being called as even of advantages.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: A boat poof pente position
Posted: May 21, 2010, 6:25 PM

Yes, I agree with you- draws are not the same as equal positions. However, one difference between tic tac toe draws and chess draws is that in tic tac toe the board size prevents the clear advantage from being able to win and in chess it something more along the lines of chess kings are able to survive too well (despite heavy material advantage, a king and a knight or a king and a bishop can't checkmate a lone king).
Since we know that a 15x15 board size is adequate for white to secure a sure win in renju, a 19x19 board size is likely fine in terms of space for most if not all reasonable 5 in a row variant combinations, so again the only place a draw would be at all likely would be in the 10-10 scenario. In the hundreds of poof games I've played, this situation has really only arisen maybe in 2% of the games, and generally one side or the other has a way to win without going past the 8-8 capture level, though I suppose 10-10s might come up more frequently in mutliple combined variants.
Anyway, given how infrequently I've seen the game come down to the wire (I have looked at wedge variants for poof in the hopes that the capturing nature of that line would promote p2's chances, but the games usually end with the pieces pretty spread out, which doesn't favor poofs) I think it would be very difficult to find any first move for black where any second move could be countered with some black second which would inevitably lead to a draw as P1's best result. But, I'd love to be proved wrong, of course!

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
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