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Topic: Adzi discussion
Replies: 50   Views: 23,551   Pages: 4   Last Post: Nov 14, 2023, 3:26 PM by: owen_

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 20, 2023, 5:23 PM

https://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=1&threadID=232861&start=15&tstart=15


Here is a link to prior adzi thread, which has many visual examples.

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watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 21, 2023, 5:17 PM

I think looking at adzi in renju and gomoku might help us. In a friendly gomoku game, I was making split 3s for tempo, but as Pente_gon pointed out my K9 move loses a tempo in this line. Perhaps our Russian renju meijin owen_ can weigh in on this thread on adzi in gomoku and renju at some point.
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/replay/220719-1001/?table=287780644&player=84710814&comments=84710814;

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watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 5, 2023, 2:29 AM

Maybe an example of adzi in a renju puzzle: black to play and win on the ninth move in this position - https://renju.se/rif/images/pr18.gif

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owen_

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 6, 2023, 1:08 PM
problem.GIF (9.6 K)

I see at least 4 different winning attacks in this position. And I mean different ideas and geometry of attack, the diff is bigger than just changing the order of moves.

Which winning plan contains aji in your opinion? Why?

watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 6, 2023, 1:19 PM

This is based on my limited understanding of Pente adzi, as described by Nosovs and Zoeyk, so it might well be an incorrect understanding. If it applies as well in renju, I would think that the move or move combination which leads to the shortest win in renju might qualify as adzi here- 11. H9 This split 3 pattern seems similar to how split threes are used in Pente adzi to gain tempo.

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watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 22, 2023, 11:35 PM

bump

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 23, 2023, 5:19 AM

Sorry watsu. I simply don't know enough about renju to comment.

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watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 23, 2023, 9:01 AM

Okay, no problem. I'm interested to know whether owen_ thinks the fastest winning line for that position, where H9 and H5 are the next two moves demonstrates aji in renju. If so, it might help with our understanding of it in Pente. Also, I asked pente_gon if he was familiar with it from gomoku and he said no, so while positions with aji likely exist in gomoku it probably doesn't have the carryover from Go in gomoku that renju has.

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owen_

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 26, 2023, 4:48 PM
daninik.png (108.4 K)

Well, my understanding of aji definetely isn't complete. I've read about it in go; and it's hard to apply this term to renju in the problem you are talking about.
Here is my understanding of aji.
(Danilin - Nikonov, 2020)
12th is showing that all threats Black is able to create in the bottom-right are 3-3 forks. So 12th kills a lot of non-fault lines thus giving a solid defence on this flank and a good perspective for a counter-attack later but creating an anji.
Black respond in e11 using this aji: white can't block at F10 due to j7-L7-k6 threat. So white has to play J7 thus enabling a very powerful attack in the upper right corner which was decisive.

Sometimes you have to prepare something before exploiting such a weakness; sometimes it's better to do it immediately.

About the position you've mentioned. Well, the fastest way to achieve 5 in a row is H9. But I can't see what anji is here. H6 answer? But it is not intercepting the tempo because of g4. Can't catch it =(

watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 26, 2023, 6:32 PM

Thanks for your answer, owen_ I will study the example you've brought up and think further on the position I mentioned. I think perhaps my understanding of aji as it applies to that position is that black has a win in 9 moves with the H9 beginning, but white's answer at H5 just makes the win in 9 less obvious than if white plays differently (an analysis program didn't find the win in 9 moves continuation after G4). after H5, G4 seems to me a less obvious win in 9 moves from the H9 first move than white's other reply to H9 which also ends in 9 moves.
So based on Pente aji, the idea in my head would be find the first move which results in the quickest win (H9) by analyzing the potential counters to that move and finding ways to proceed from the first move regardless of how the opponent counters.


Message was edited by: watsu at Oct 26, 2023, 6:39 PM


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watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 26, 2023, 8:24 PM

In the Danilin - Nikonov game, it seems to me that white creates bad aji with move 12, which black exploits. So far at least, it seems like our Pente adzi discussions have mostly been about good aji which the first player creates (though we have one or two examples of where the first player has created bad aji which the second player can take advantage of). There was one of your games here which I was following along with awhile back, owen_, and I put the position into an analusis program to see what it would recommend for your next move. You picked a different move which won more quickly than what the program suggested. I think this is maybe how we use adzi in Pente more often.

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owen_

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 26, 2023, 11:31 PM

Wow, you follow my games =) I'm sorry some of those are of quite low quality =(

Concerning the number of moves to win. I see no difference in win in 9 moves and win in 7 moves. The best win is the win you've found, checked and succesfully played.

watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 26, 2023, 11:55 PM

In general play, I agree with you in terms of the number of moves to win. Though, in puzzles or possibly in Pente adzi gaining tempo and squeezing a victory out of a position a bit more quickly may make sense. Yes, I definitely do follow your games. I think it's a good way to learn is to see whether I can figure out what you might do next or at what point in the game it becomes a sure win and that type of thing. It's not a goal of mine to become a better gomoku or renju player, but I think studying master players of those games can potentially help my Pente skills.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 26, 2023, 11:57 PM

Yes nosovs has never discussed bad adzi. Only whites good adzi. Perhaps in perfect play thats all that occurs generally. Or perhaps he dumbed it down so that we could see the more important part if nothing else.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 27, 2023, 12:01 AM

Partly, I think that may have to do with Pente tournament rule being a sure win, unlike renju which is a more balanced game. Adzi or aji could be present for both players in renju, which can end in a draw, but white should be winning from the start of the game in tournament rules Pente.

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