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Topic: Keryo
Replies: 27   Views: 15,991   Pages: 2   Last Post: Aug 16, 2023, 3:21 PM by: watsu

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etyrnal

Posts: 29
Registered: Mar 29, 2022
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Keryo
Posted: May 31, 2022, 8:32 PM

I haven't been playing keryo long. only several games. I can't seem to feel a strategy for in-a-row wins yet. Unless it somehow has to do with developing a reaction-sense in the other player. Meaning, starting to develop a sense of what forces another player to react in any semi-predictable way, like forced moves, or baiting, in a sense.

So keryo just seems to transform pente into 'try not to give away captures', and try to get captures'. No?


Has anyone else made any observations about keryo as far as strategy goes? Or does it just come down to playing so much that you begin to recognize cascades of patterns as the play unfolds?


mikaelh

Posts: 37
Registered: Nov 24, 2016
From: Sweden
Re: Keryo
Posted: Jun 2, 2022, 6:21 PM

Keryo adds a new dimension to the game. In my opinion it is much more fun and give the defender more tactical chances than regular Pente.

How ever, Keryo have not resulted in a even game, like it was ment. I agree with watsu that swap2 Keryo should be offered as a game playable here. Until that hopefully happens I prefer to play DK-Pente.

metzgerism

Posts: 17
Registered: Dec 5, 2021
From: Knoxville, TN
Re: Keryo
Posted: Jun 6, 2022, 5:48 PM

I started playing Pente (and here) in earnest about six months ago, and immediately gravitated towards Keryo. It's my preferred game on the site, and prefer it over base Pente for the following reasons:

- standard Pente opening knowledge is completely useless.
- most of you don't know how to play it well.

So it's nice for a relative newcomer. I've recently been enamored with O-Pente because of the bait and traps you can set.

Game feel is a bit annoying - you have to extend your closed-3's immediately, and early game you're often placing stones on a quarter grid, but I like the fact that 2-in-a-rows can be used as bait. I think the game would be a little better served with a smaller capture goal (13 for p1, 11 for p2), but I think the same thing for Pente (maybe 8 and 6).

I'm on the verge of a Pente-esque game that specifically hates 3-in-a-rows (but not 2's), looking to find something intriguing that's less punishing than Yavalath/Squava, and doesn't have my personal issues with Keryo game-feel.


Message was edited by: metzgerism at Jun 6, 2022, 5:49 PM


zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Keryo
Posted: Jun 7, 2022, 1:44 AM

For even game, I think both players must move at same time. Every move. If both players pick same spot. Then both players promoted of such. If both players try same spot after prompt, then instead that spot will be filled with a dead stone. Benefiting neither side except as an obstacle both must play around. In order to try and avoid stale mate, if two dead stones touch, they explode, deleting them selves and all other stones touching the exploding dead stones. Thus freeing up space to continue playing. If both players make a 5 at same time, assuming 5 is the winning rule, then the 5th stones placed become dead stones. If both capture 5th capture at same time, then the captures instead turn into dead stones, and because touching, must explode, like previously stated. If a player makes 5 in a row, and the other player makes 5th capture, then the capture explodes, and, if the 5 in a row is not disturbed by said explosion, then the 5 in a row wins. But if the explosion disrupts the 5 in a row, then the game continues.

This is my example of even game. Which could end in stale mate theoretically but often times won't. But may be a very long game to complete, as it could take thousands of moves.

-z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,427
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Keryo
Posted: Jun 7, 2022, 4:18 AM

Somewhat off the keryo topic, but continuing with the even game idea:
I think both swap variants of renju and swap2 gomoku can be considered as basically even games, due to the possibility for drawn games in both. So, I think any swap2 variant of Pente which contains the possibility of a drawn game within its rules could be considered an even game as well. Currently, as implemented here there aren't draws in poof Pente, but having a capture count of 10-10 (or 15-15 for O Pente) could just as easily be considered a drawn game as a game which proceeds until the tie is broken.
Also, Pente's ancestor game, ninuki renju has the possibility for a drawn game, when a fifth capture removes an overline stone to create a 5 for the opponent. I think either of those possibilities would be less complex than the simultaneous moves idea, but still enable an even game for Pente (or a close variant of it).

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
etyrnal

Posts: 29
Registered: Mar 29, 2022
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Re: Keryo
Posted: Jun 7, 2022, 4:10 PM

"This is my example of even game. Which could end in stale mate theoretically but often times won't. But may be a very long game to complete, as it could take thousands of moves."

this sounds like it would be interesting. I don't know who would want to play thousands of moves though. maybe it would become more interesting with three players.

also if you have the computer acting as a referee the computer could keep track of the life of all the stones and Stones beyond a certain age would die. or so beyond a certain age plus certain conditions would die.

watsu

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Jun 7, 2022, 4:54 PM

"maybe it would become more interesting with three players."
I've played just enough 3 player Pente (one game by accident) to think it's an absolutely hideous game, despite having some fans. In my one game, I made a move which threatened to win on my next move if it wasn't addressed by one of my opponents. The player after me ignored it and made a winning threat of her own, leaving the third player to make the choice of who won the game.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
etyrnal

Posts: 29
Registered: Mar 29, 2022
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Re: Keryo
Posted: Jun 7, 2022, 5:18 PM

"also if you have the computer acting as a referee the computer could keep track of the life of all the stones and Stones beyond a certain age would die. or so beyond a certain age plus certain conditions would die."

that might have been more clear if i'd said the computer referee kept track of the AGE of each stone...

You could set the age threshold based on the skill of the players. long range strategies would die off, and things would become more like a like a live conflict. The landscape 'unexpectedly' changing over time.

Maybe the disappearing stones would be randomized -- meaning, once stones get to a certain age a 50/50 random function decides if they disappear, or survive and become excluded from future culling.

Not sure how you'd play that on a real board/stones.

mikaelh

Posts: 37
Registered: Nov 24, 2016
From: Sweden
Re: Keryo
Posted: Jul 27, 2023, 11:27 AM

Nice to notice that swap2 Pente now is introduced on this site! Any plans of offering swap2 Keryo as well?

rainwolf

Posts: 753
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Singapore
Age: 44
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Re: Keryo
Posted: Jul 27, 2023, 1:20 PM

it should be a less work than swap2-pente, but I'd first like to
- see how swap2 pente catches on
- develop the live version
- then consider swap2 keryo

metzgerism

Posts: 17
Registered: Dec 5, 2021
From: Knoxville, TN
Re: Keryo
Posted: Jul 28, 2023, 4:48 PM

There's nothing wrong with implementing swap2 Keryo right away - it's a pie rule, and pie rules are best treated as variants until deemed essential to a game - it won't make anything worse, that's for sure.

rainwolf

Posts: 753
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Singapore
Age: 44
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Re: Keryo
Posted: Jul 29, 2023, 4:42 AM

well, not so much nothing wrong, but barely have time, and the whole codebase has space for only 10 more games before it needs a huge overhaul

watsu

Posts: 1,427
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Keryo
Posted: Jul 29, 2023, 2:34 PM

Ten games =
2 time controls for swap2 Pente
3 for Keryp
3 for boat
3 for poof
Oops = 11

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
mikaelh

Posts: 37
Registered: Nov 24, 2016
From: Sweden
Re: Keryo
Posted: Jul 29, 2023, 6:42 PM

I understand the considerations mentioned by rainwolf.
When it comes to game space I suggest that swap2 Keryo can replace DK-Pente.

mikaelh

Posts: 37
Registered: Nov 24, 2016
From: Sweden
Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 12, 2023, 12:28 AM

But unlike in swap2 Pente I would prefer swap2 Keryo to be played in a 2 set game, just like in DK-Pente.

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