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Topic: Keryo
Replies: 27   Views: 27,618   Pages: 2   Last Post: Aug 16, 2023, 3:21 PM by: watsu

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rainwolf

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 12, 2023, 9:41 AM

This is where our opinions clash: one of the draws for me to implement swap2 is that its purpose is to make a single game more balanced, and I'm very much in favor of bringing single games to pente.org as I think the sets bring unwelcome friction to the gameplay. I'm pretty sure some highly rated players don't like the rating adjustment much for draws in sets. I think I would mind a lot less if draws were part of single games too.

watsu

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 12, 2023, 1:27 PM

Since swap2 games (particularly live games) may indeed be more balanced than single games of other variants, I think having single games as an option is a good idea. As I mentioned in the swap2 thread, I also think that a single TB game of a swap2 variant is less balanced than a set of D games. I don't think replacing one with the other is a useful idea (for one thing, we already have many games of D and DK in the database, so those variants should remain playable).

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
mikaelh

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 13, 2023, 12:20 AM

If watsu is correct, stating that a single TB game of swap2 Keryo is less balanced than a set of DK-Pente, maybe a set of swap2 Keryo maybe could be offered as an option after all?

watsu

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 13, 2023, 12:46 AM

Well, the difficulty is that swap2 is balancing for live gomoku games. For TB Pente games, not so much. I think the strongest players can use two+ days to decide which player has an advantage even in unfamiliar positions. In which case, there's no need to add two stones and allow the other player to choose sides. I don't see TB sets of swap2 Pente variants as really adding anything which can basically be covered by a single swap. Swap2 prevents overstudy by the proposer in a live game situation, which makes it good for a single game decision in a tournament setting. I just don't see a lot of value in it (compared to D) for TB.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
rainwolf

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 13, 2023, 10:48 AM

I think that, unless there's a convincing argument that swap2 is imbalanced, I would want to offer it as a single game

watsu

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 13, 2023, 2:02 PM

Pente and variants aren't going to have balance (in the sense of being able to achieve a forced draw from an opening position) in a single game without some serious computer analysis to determine the minimal opening number of stones and other additional variants (six in a row doesn't win, boat rules and/or poof draws) needed for a proposer to offer a position which is drawable despite best choice and play by his/her/their opponent. It's just not a game where draws are achievable without some tweaking and mistakes currently. Is swap2 still a challenging enough game as is to allow masters to achieve a master rating in TB? Sure, nedhall17 and I have demonstrated that at BGA, though the high level competition pool there is pretty limited. Some stats and observations from my swap games aganst nedhall17 here and there - rated swap2, I'm 11/13 against him and in D I'm 2/2/0. I think until this point I've been a stronger player than him in swap games, but right now if I had to play 10 TB games where I promposed in each of them, I doubt I would be able to win more than I lost and if I played 10 games against him as the chooser, I would guess that I would win 80% of them +/- 10%. That's the level of imbalance I see between two master players who have played ~20 rated swap gamesagainst each other. Hope this helps.


Message was edited by: watsu at Aug 13, 2023, 2:40 PM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
rainwolf

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 14, 2023, 12:12 AM

perhaps not convincing but I do put a bit of weight on your assessment. I think I'll switch it to sets once the test tournament is over.

rainwolf

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 16, 2023, 2:07 PM

Swap2 should be set-based now.

watsu

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 16, 2023, 2:12 PM

TB only? Single games are fine for live swap2 due to the add 2 stones rule (which is irrelevant for TB).

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
rainwolf

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 16, 2023, 2:15 PM

No, TB and Live.
Why is it irrelevant for TB and not live?

watsu

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 16, 2023, 2:37 PM

I thought I explained that in my argumemts in the swap2 thread. In any case, in live play, a player doesn't have the time and pushing stones ability to analyze an unfamiliar proposal, so adding 2 stones can be the best choice for the chooser. In TB, the chooser does have thisability, so should be able to choose the sidewith the advantage and not need to add stones.
ETA: if the choice is between sets/single games for both TB and live, I would choose single games despitethe disadvantage to the proposer in TB. I think that is outweighed by the advantages of single games in live play.


Message was edited by: watsu at Aug 16, 2023, 2:40 PM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
rainwolf

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 16, 2023, 2:47 PM

This hinges on the uncertainty a player doesn't have the ability to analyse an unfamiliar position in the available time. But the spectrum on that ability is going to set players apart, and if the game is inherently imbalanced, then the better players are going to be able to exploit that.

I think I prefer to avoid that situation and additionally avoid a disconnect with how games between TB and live are played.

watsu

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Re: Keryo
Posted: Aug 16, 2023, 3:21 PM

True, and in 90% of my live swap2 games I can analyze a position for advantage in a minute or so (though not always play the winning side correctly). But, I can also often play as black without tournament rules and still win against non expert players. It's mostly an issue between expert/master players as to tournament and ratings fairness in these variants. While a randomly assigned proposer in a live game tournament makes for much faster tournaments with a larger number of participants, so far we don't have much need for that additional brevity right now.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
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