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Topic: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
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up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 31, 2010, 10:33 PM

I believe that 5. H11 is beaten by the primary threat of 5 ... L10. For example:





zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
Home page
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 31, 2010, 10:55 PM

well if P1 blocks the 3 high its not so easy for P2.
here are some games i played with the move. only one was similar to yours.










Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
happyj0

Posts: 58
Registered: Mar 12, 2010
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 1, 2011, 3:45 AM

oops


Message was edited by: happyj0 at Dec 31, 2010 10:00 PM


happyj0

Posts: 58
Registered: Mar 12, 2010
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 1, 2011, 4:00 AM




happyj0

Posts: 58
Registered: Mar 12, 2010
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 1, 2011, 4:01 AM




happyj0

Posts: 58
Registered: Mar 12, 2010

Posted: Jan 1, 2011, 4:12 AM




happyj0

Posts: 58
Registered: Mar 12, 2010
Re: ..
Posted: Jan 1, 2011, 4:25 AM

5)F9 was a conceptual blunder by DanPorter. With any luck he reads this thread and learns something from it.

P.S. This is my first time posting positions on this forum, and somewhere I screwed up the HTML, making it impossible for me to reply in this thread without changing the subject header. Hopefully no one else winds up plagued by this due to my drunken mistake.

P.P.S. Newpy Hap Year everyone!!!


Message was edited by: happyj0 at Dec 31, 2010 10:25 PM


jhs55

Posts: 264
Registered: Jun 4, 2006
From: Houston, tx
Age: 58
Re: ..
Posted: Jan 1, 2011, 7:25 PM

LOL

i owe riii 15 cases of beer !...dang man...
up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 1, 2011, 8:14 PM

Yep, happy beat me to the punch with 7 ... H11. In his second variation, better is 9 ... H10 for the 3x3 avoiding any further problems.

Lastly, instead of blocking on either side, white could have tried extending and going for the keystone attack -- but the one "extra" stone that white is originally stuck with causes a huge problem for trying that, which is one of the reasons why the direct threat on move 5 is so strong for black.

The "Hammer Opening" as shown through move 4 definitely loses, and it's specifically because of the location of that extra stone.


Message was edited by: up2ng at Jan 1, 2011 2:15 PM


pente_man

Posts: 29
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Canada
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 2, 2011, 5:51 AM

Placing a stone to J11 for the 6th move is strong for player 2. There is also this variation where player 2 utilizes the adzi principle first before playing to J11.
The endgame might not be as easy, but player 2 still has the win. Opportunities for player 2 to utilize adzi are rare so here it is:



happyj0

Posts: 58
Registered: Mar 12, 2010
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 2, 2011, 7:07 AM

up2ng said "better is 9 ... H10 for the 3x3 avoiding any further problems."

I take issue with the word "better", but your point is taken; the position transposes, something I did not originally see.

My variation "avoids further problems" too; I simply spotted it before I saw your move last night after I made my post....

Anyway, for whatever reason I was acutely aware of the damage that the G10 stone did to my ability to continue the way I did, so when the opportunity for a clear win arose, I took it.

Penteman,

There is more than one way to wield a hammer to effect, and if you see a way to win the way you played it, then good for you. That said, your move looks superfluous to me, and you didn't flesh any continuation out. I personally would simply continue from your position the way I did in my first position, albeit with the additional distraction of a couple of new irrelevant stones.

zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
Home page
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 2, 2011, 10:12 AM

@happyj0;
thanks for showing your solution. apreciated. its like pulling teeth to get strong players involved with discussions it seems. so im always happy when people show up so i dont feel as tho im talking to my self with a bunch of silent observers. makes it feel less creepy.


about your comments to pente man how ever;
superfluous? ide say it was skinning the cat with style.
and continuation? im not sure its needed in obvious endings.


@in general;
i posted the second move idea here, not because i didnt see a solution, but because i wanted others to think and have a reason to participate. im glad it worked.

in the end, i feel the hammer is a P2 win. but, it is important for us to know why it is. to just hear the 30 year old legend of the hammer being a P2 win but not really looking into how its played i think is a error on our part. any good master should know the hammer first and formost. this also goes for new players learning the game. the hammer is the basic 101 class to get your feet wet. and its funny ive seen strong players lose the hammer as P2. just funny. they just heard hammer is P2 win and never thought to study it... don't just hear you know it,,, know you know it.

z

Message was edited by: zoeyk at Jan 2, 2011 4:15 AM

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
Home page
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 2, 2011, 10:42 AM

on second thought. perhaps you mean if white extends to K7 before blocking the 3 at J12. same level of messyness i suppose...

P2 still has the win at H8 in that situation,.. just have to give caps is all. no biggy.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
Home page
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 2, 2011, 11:08 AM

and,..

happyj0 said;
5)F9 was a conceptual blunder by DanPorter. With any luck he reads this thread and learns something from it.





z:
now,.. im not sure how to take that. so ill leave it to others to say how they think it sounds. but im just saying.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
pente_man

Posts: 29
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Canada
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Jan 2, 2011, 2:55 PM

Check this one out and try to beat it.



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