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Topic: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
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zoeyk

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Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Oct 7, 2010, 3:28 PM

Since our top player (nosovs) calls it Adzi, i guess we'll go with that.

It has been stressed by nosovs that this is a very important concept in Pente that is not known enough.

its not a move, its a concept he has explained.

in Go they explain it with an analogy;

"Adzi is like a stone in your shoe when you are late. The stone hurts and you can't run as fast, but because you are late, you cannot stop to take it out."



And, nosovs has said;
easy speaking, it means to not capture opponent's stones, and keep your tempo in attacking. Continue; building winning combinations, or improving your position.
When you have no good idea of how to improve your position, then you can capture.





and a picture i made to show my idea of it;
Image and video hosting by TinyPic



If there is any one out there with more information to explain Adzi in terms of Pente concepts, please post here.

Preferably someone who is good in both Go and Pente, since this will probably yield the more accurate opinion.

i think this limits us down to;
nosovs, richardiii, watsu, up2ng, karlw, tenuki, and maybe a few other candidates.

but im open to hear any ones ideas on this, as long as its well thought out, or even good questions about it are welcome. nosovs is around and might answer them if we are fortunate.

Thanks.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Oct 8, 2010, 1:51 PM

heres a picture and question for nosovs, or who ever. the final move of P1 shown here, how do you call this. is adzi involved here? or is this just an example of tempo?

Image and video hosting by TinyPic









and same question here in example #2

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Oct 8, 2010, 2:18 PM

and i remember being impressed with the techniques at the time when i saw nosovs make these moves.
how do you call what all happened here as far as what P1's moves were. the 6th and 7th moves combo of P1, and the 11th and 13th moves combo of P1. leaving the pair behind to get the next stone to position.




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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Oct 8, 2010, 2:38 PM

so, can adzi also be a situation where you leave your pair in atari so that this move you can get your stone into the next required position to maintain tempo?


adzi seems to be,
to pass up the intake of opponents material, or the willingness to offer own material, in order to either maintain or increase ones own tempo by jockying a stone into a static position of strong(er) tempo.

and often times the sacrificed material was what allowed this next move to work. so usually some sort of connection between the abandoned material and the newer material, where the abandoned materials exsitance plays some role in the new materials ability to be with the level of tempo that it has.

sacrifice material to speed up position, in short maybe.


does this sound close to a correct definition?


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Oct 8, 2010 2:50 PM

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Oct 9, 2010, 9:31 PM

so nosovs had confirmed to me that my proposed definition is correct. so adzi is not limited to you passing up the opportunity of taking a capture. and it does not mean you must defend your pair either. it had a broader meaning.

seems to be to switch up dirrection to maintain or improve Tempo with position at the cost of lossing material in some situations, and gaining material in other situations. the material is not the focus, the Tempo of new position is the focus.
in situations of adzi, position trumps material.


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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Oct 9, 2010, 10:07 PM

here is another example. nosovs's 4th 5th 6th move combo is adzi as a whole. he has givin up his pair, and declined taking the opponents pair, so that he could utilize this timing to leap into position.













and yet another example of where nosovs offers his pair on the right, to then leap to position on the left.
note that, if the pair to the right wasn't offered first, the pair to the left wouldnt work. these none local moves may not seem connected geographically, but they are connected through the adzi principle of tempo's time and space balance.




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s3v3n

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Oct 10, 2010, 3:02 AM

when watching this thread i feel like stones are hiting my face..they are quite big..

zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Oct 10, 2010, 10:57 AM

thanks s3v3n. i have now reduced the size of the 2 images.
i hope that helps you to see the thread easier.
did you have any thing else to add about the topic by chance?

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 9, 2010, 11:49 PM

nosovs had asked me to add this game as adzi example when it finished. it is a game at BK.

here P1 attempts to do adzi on the left side (pseudo adzi)

and P2 realizes it can do a superior adzi on the right side (true adzi)

P1's attempt on the left was missing a component of logic to make it a complete adzi.

P1 was basing every thing around P2 capturing. in adzi this is not enough. it must be a double path. where capture or not capture by the opponent a leading path remains for you. here when P2 didnt capture, there was no secondary leading path to go to, so P1 loses.

Here P2 offers material at N10 and continues with leading path on the 7 line with buildable winning material.




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jasonb

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 10, 2010, 9:27 PM

My take away from this thread is it is better to sacrifice a pair or give up the opportunity to take a pair if the end result is a stronger position for you.

Here is a sequence I've used more times than I can count. Would this be considered adzi?

ref moves 5 thru 8



zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 12, 2010, 10:02 PM

sorry i haven't responded faster. ide like to say no to your question. perhaps i am wrong, but even if it is a over simplified form, which i don't think it is, i don't want it as the example any how because it will greatly limit the understanding of how out side of the box adzi really is. although your example carries some traits, it is lacking some components to complete the definition i think. it just carries some similarities is all i think. i hope nosovs can comment further on this.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 12, 2010, 10:55 PM

besides, i think O7 was un-necessary, and made P1 have to capture, which is also not adzi'ish.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 12, 2010, 11:03 PM

and, to make a split 3, then make another 3 where a stone of the next 3 is found with in the pair of the prior split 3 i think is not adzi. this is too local. the pair at risk although should be related to the tempo of following moves, it should not be a direct source of the following threats. im struggling to articulate what i mean here i realize. perhaps some one who gets what i mean can help me articulate this better. some one mentioned that perhaps niobium would do good at this..

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 12, 2010, 11:16 PM

adzi is a certain concept or and style. it is not a move, but it can be found with in a sequence of moves. the sequence can be partitioned with non-adzi in the middle between the sequences, basically pausing the motion and then resuming.

maybe its like you are sword fighting, and you put your arm out, and they want to chop off your arm, but they realize they cant do that because if they do the other arm with the sword will come in and strike, and if they strike the sword to defend, the arm grabs them and slows them down. this is maybe a bad example so i will try to think of a better one.

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up2ng

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 12, 2010, 11:53 PM

Judging from nosovs' comments about the concept of adzi in the original post, this seems to be a pretty straightforward concept that is learned as an intermediate level player.

Basically, there is a pair available for you to capture right now, but you choose to do something else. The most common reason for this would be that you are better off forming a series of trias to force a win, but if you take the capture, it does not actually create a threat for you and so you lose the initiative.

Definitely an important concept for players to learn.

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