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Topic: Pente for Dummies
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jasonb

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Registered: Jan 3, 2010
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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 24, 2010, 11:53 AM

Zoey and up2ng,

Thank you so much for all of the helpful info. I will try to use it to enhance the guide. Keep it coming!


alisontate

Posts: 157
Registered: Nov 27, 2008
Age: 30
Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 24, 2010, 2:59 PM

Perhaps a good corollary to this is learning to drive a car.

The first step is to know the names of things like the brake, the steering wheel, the engine, the accelerator etc and to know what their basic function is.

The next step is to learn how to use these to perform basic maneuvers such as 3-point turns, reversing, hand-brake starts and so on, so you can get from a to be confidently and without crashing your car every time. In other words enough to get your license.

The final step is the advanced driver's course in which one considers how to improve one's performance, speed, safety, road sense and car handling skills.

If you stop and think what things would be said to a driver in the advanced course that would be an irrelevant distraction to someone at step 2 - license level - then I think that will help you to understand where the line should be drawn. Eg. Someone going for their license would not be interested in hearing a lecture on the importance of taking a racing line and cutting the apex and powering out of a corner to keep traction and maximize down force. They just want to know how to get from a to b safely and pass their license, without hearing too many details that only confuse and complicate the situation.

I think also that the term 'Beginners Guide' is enough to allow the graduate to later on forgive any omitions, simplifications or apparent contradictions in a beginner course. The goal of the beginners course is to introduce new players to the basic thinking of the game, the basic concepts and give them a sense of direction. Later when they find their bearings you can get into the advanced driving.

I think a combo of Jason and snow_white's content is about right - plus the inclusion of 5 caps as has been mentioned. I would only want to add one more point to that which is - remember to have fun!

~Ali

watsu

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 24, 2010, 9:21 PM

to this list for beginners I would add the following advice: learn a bit about first player tournament openings and how you can convert them into winning positions- a few good shapes can go a long way toward helping your game develop. The next three boards show a few ways in which the three stone L shape formation can develop for white if black declines to interfere...








The next board shows a way the three stone "hat" or large triangle formation can develop stongly when not interfered with...

.

By these few examples, players may begin to see how white can play to develop a stong position by giving up a capture. After a second of N10, white has four L that can be made and also 4 "hats". This is why a move to N10 or a rotation of it is generally considered to be the strongest second move in most cases. Learning to make and play out a few strong white forms like these generally helps to strengthen a player's overall game.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
jasonb

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 24, 2010, 9:40 PM

watsu, That is great stuff there. I plan to add a section on basic shapes to both use and look out for. This and the Zoey's fukumi examples will be great additions to that topic.

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 24, 2010, 10:53 PM

Hey Zoey, I see what you're saying about lines that dead end. I guess what we're running into is another case where terminology for Pente is not really standardized. Players often just use common words loosely during online chats to communicate enough to be understood and stay on the same page. But with not many concrete references and without a large number of active experts, people end up using these terms how they think is appropriate and they don't always line up.

When I use the term initiative I am generally talking about pressing a winning position until you achieve victory, generally by continuing to make trias, forcing captures and so on. I think this is pretty much how jasonb is using the term also. I don't necessarily consider making a tria when the opponent does not have any trias as having the initiative simply because the opponent must respond to that tria on the next move. For example, white plays his first 3 moves into some sort of opening shape, such as an L. Black plays his first three moves as a tria. There are times when black has actually put himself into a winning position by doing this, but often this is just a setup for the midgame and both players understand that white is still in control. Clearly with only 3 stones in play which make up a tria, black will not be able to play another tria on the next move. So, is this initiative? To me, it is not. So, I guess that's where we're using the term differently.

Perhaps some other players who have been around a while can weigh in on that one.

morse

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Registered: Mar 3, 2010
Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 25, 2010, 1:53 AM



Very interesting & helpful to me as a beginner,I shall re read it until my game improves and still continue reading after that.Explained in easy to understand words and diagrams.............Morse

zoeyk

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 25, 2010, 7:59 AM

well up2, and i really think this should continue in a thread along the lines of "advanced". know what i mean?..
but clearly defining in depth what initiative's definition(s) are/is ,..should be known as..
this is not a subject that has been beaten into the ground by any means, and ide like to tackle it with others if others are wanting to.
should initiative be broken down into sub categories? what are the correct definitions? and so on. standardize it, officially. group consensus or something.

you start the thread and i'll show up.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
nosovs

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 25, 2010, 10:08 AM

I have not see the ADZI in this discussion
Initiative is important but ADZI is a part of initiative.
This term is from Go game.

jhs55

Posts: 264
Registered: Jun 4, 2006
From: Houston, tx
Age: 58
Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 25, 2010, 6:00 PM

ukie is great pente teacher......yikes !

i owe riii 15 cases of beer !...dang man...
watsu

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 25, 2010, 6:30 PM

Nosovs, I can't seem to find adzi among Go terms, such as here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoTerms
Do you have a link?

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 25, 2010, 6:43 PM

thank you alex. i know about adzi, but didn't add it because its too advanced for beginners. when we move this discussion to an advanced thread we will talk about that.

alex, can you please post a visual example of a adzi position? or just tell me the moves and i will make it a visual board for you, thanks.


Atari - next move will be capture, so you have to react on this threat.

There is different Atari

Atari-4 (atari with four after capture),
Atari-4* (atari with 5 -th capture threat)
Atari-3 (atari with three after capture)
Atari-3* (atari with 4 -th capture threat, and possibility make atari-4* next move)
Atari - just capture
The level of threat is different - that is important.

Adzi - This is a understanding of your own strategy, and ignoring atari, because of attacking opponent. Because when you capture - you lose tempo. So , that is keeping tempo of your own attack.

=momentum= the impetus to go forward, develop, or get stronger


=initiative= a first step; a commencing move -
the right or power to initiate something -
on one's own initiative without being prompted -
the first of a series of actions -
The power or ability to begin or to follow through energetically with a plan or task -
A beginning or introductory step -

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
jasonb

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Mar 27, 2010, 4:35 PM

Revision 1:
I've made several changes to the guide and incorporated some of the examples everyone was so kind to share. Please keep the ideas coming and let me know if I made any blunders.

Watsu, I added a few moves to your first L shape example. Hope you don't mind.

watsu

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Apr 1, 2010, 7:44 PM

I'm going to use the moves with which Greg Strange illustrated the pawnbroker @ http://web.archive.org/web/20040131001542/www.playpente.com/pawnbroker.html
to point out something which I often see less experienced players doing, namely resisting playing directly into a capture situation which can be forced. This resistance is almost always a bad idea, since if the opponent can force you to move there anyway, s/he usually will and by that force they get a new stone in play which lines up with the stone they play when they make the capture. But enough words, here's the example:




Now, if instead of playing @ N9 on move 5, Pawn plays directly to J9 instead, reasoning that his/her opponent can force that capture anyway look at the board-

Broker no longer has a stone at H9 to form that nasty tria with at H7 and must instead look elsewhere on the board in search of a win.


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 1, 2010 1:45 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 1, 2010 1:47 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
jasonb

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Apr 4, 2010, 7:37 PM

Great tip Watsu! I agree that it's usually a wasted move to block the far end of an open 3 in situations like this.

Revision 2:
I added a section on Opens. This is an area that I am struggling with, so any help would be appreciated.

zoeyk

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Re: Pente for Dummies
Posted: Aug 18, 2010, 10:54 AM

maybe add in something about how even if its unrated and doesnt require the tourney rule to be used, the social rule is generally to use it any ways. unless both players agree to not use it. i say this because using it rated or not is common practice by the majority, and not using it is bothersome to several players. my 2 cents. and perhaps explain why its better to use it (to help balance the P1 advantage) so that a logical reason is presented as to why this is being asked of them.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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