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Topic: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Replies: 30   Views: 65,197   Pages: 3   Last Post: Jul 12, 2009, 10:52 PM by: zoeyk

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zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
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Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 17, 2008, 7:14 AM



.





Enter the Matrix of Pente



Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare


up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 19, 2008, 9:45 PM

I checked out this game before and I thought it was excellent. I was amazed after seeing the opening that white was still able to win it until I saw the extremely good mid-game play that white used to maintain enough initiative to win the game.

After a questionable opening, it seemed like the 5th move was a critical point in this game. White does not appear to have any great options and I'm not sure that H12 is best, but it got the job done. I don't blame black for countering with 5 ... M9, setting up a potential keystone attack if white plays the tria at J11 -- a lot of expert players would have played here also and it was my first thought when looking at it. I would have expected white to play defensively after this with a move like M8, getting in black's way and setting up a stretch 3 keystone attack. But instead, white played right into the face of danger with J11! In this case, white clearly saw the keystone threat and decided that he could still maintain the initiative because of the way it all lined up, and he was right!

Now, with hindsight being 20/20 and knowing that 5 ... M9 does not work, is there anything black could have done at move 5 to turn the tide? What if black plays a move like L11? I know it's ugly, but can white win after this response? If not, is there another 5th for white that's better? How about 5. H11?

Anyway, I guess the point is, the opening was a bit shaky which meant that it required amazing mid-game play to secure the win. Also, this shows that keystone attacks do not always pan out as a strategy to disrupt your opponent's initiative.

karlw

Posts: 946
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 3:52 AM

Dear Dean,

I love you for describing so perfectly the key juncture at move 5. I especially love "instead, white played in the face of danger with J11!" which is pretty much exactly what I was feeling when I made that move. If you want to see another beautiful example of position sacrificed for initiative, check out this gem:




I'm pretty sure anyone who took a look at white's position after 9...M8 (including yours truly) would say it looks pretty ugly. But somehow I was able to hold on to a slim thread of initiative and turn it into victory, despite multiple caps absolutely demolishing my position. Which proves the point:

Initiative > Position

which has characterized my strategy for white of late.
Is Tactical > Positional a corollary of that? Can't say for sure.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
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Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 7:19 AM

so why couldnt you make the diag 4 on move 11? black only gets 4 captures if you did.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
karlw

Posts: 946
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 9:45 AM

because one of the caps makes a tessera:


K10,L7,K7,H8,M8,L9,K8,K9,M9,K6,M10,M11,L10,J10,N10,O10,L8,N8,H11,J10,K7,K8,L8,M8


black can use the stolen initiative to get a capture win.


Message was edited by: karlw at Oct 20, 2008 3:57 PM


It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
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Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 9:47 AM

whoops hehe, yes ok. my bad.





Message was edited by: zoeyk at Oct 20, 2008 4:04 AM


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Oct 20, 2008 4:07 PM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
mersenne

Posts: 13
Registered: Dec 10, 2006
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 9:49 AM

cap K8, cap M8 = forces white to play N9

mersenne

Posts: 13
Registered: Dec 10, 2006
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 9:50 AM

oh dang...I need to type faster...

karlw

Posts: 946
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 10:10 AM

[response removed because no longer applicable]


Message was edited by: karlw at Oct 20, 2008 7:26 PM


It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
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Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 10:14 AM

[deleted by zoeyk, due to personal comments to karlw that don't belong in the Analysis Thread]


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Oct 20, 2008 4:01 PM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
dweebo

Posts: 1,031
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Powell, OH
Age: 37
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Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 3:13 PM

I agree with karl that almost all the time initiative is more important than position. It is one of the things that is interesting about Pente.

I played a turn-based Keryo set recently and was realizing one of the main difference with Keryo in my opinion is how much more important position is because of how quickly everything can go to hell when captures start.

Also I recently played a similar game as the karlw vs mersenne in turn-based against lepews and thankfully was able to see the trap that black was hoping for as karl described it. I couldn't see a clean path to a win with a forceful initiative (forced 3s and 4s) but instead gave black no offensive options and left myself with various choices for an offensive on the next move. Black resigned.




-dweebo

Pente Rocks!
karlw

Posts: 946
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 20, 2008, 9:56 PM

I love pente!


Message was edited by: karlw at Oct 20, 2008 7:27 PM


It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
karlw

Posts: 946
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 21, 2008, 1:17 AM

Dweebo,

that's an interesting argument that position is much more important in keryo because of "how quickly everything can go to hell when captures start" which is definitely true. Next time I play a keryo game I will keep that in mind and see if I agree with it. It is definitely true that initiative is much much more fragile and difficult to maintain in keryo than in pente, so a priori I agree with you. I'll get back to you after I've examined it further (which might take a while because barely anyone plays keryo seriously on this site).

And good choice in the game vs. lepews. It is true that if you can't see a solid attack, the next best thing is definitely to forget building and do everything you can to absolutely destroy black's offensive potential if possible.

-Karl

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
dweebo

Posts: 1,031
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Powell, OH
Age: 37
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Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 21, 2008, 3:44 PM

I didn't mean to imply in my earlier post that position is more important than initiative in keryo, I don't think I was very clear. I meant to say that I think position is more important in keryo-pente than in pente. Initiative is still key and it could be that initiative is more important than position in keryo.

Plus I've only played a handful of keryo games ever, so I am by no means an expert.

-dweebo

Pente Rocks!
karlw

Posts: 946
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 21, 2008, 11:02 PM

that's how i understood it dweebo. the "than in pente" is implied in my sentences, not "than initiative."

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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