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zoeyk

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white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 5, 2008, 10:37 PM

heres a interesting game from a while back where i made white win the hammer.
i assisted maria in black moves so as to put white to a tuff test. what do you think rich?

ok so whites move 14 J14 is better replaced with move 14 L12, i missed it.




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watsu

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 5, 2008, 11:55 PM

Well, I'm not Rich, but I think P2 has a win with a different move @ 15. Unless I'm missing something (quite possible) P2 wins by continuous forces with the following line- ...L9 J9-O9 N9-N8 N9-L12 N10-L10




ETA- seeing the change does make it look much improved for P1


Message was edited by: watsu at Oct 5, 2008 6:24 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 5, 2008, 11:59 PM

picture whites 14th changed to L12 followed by F14 then the cap to open both 4s,...then what do you see?

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up2ng

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 9, 2008, 12:59 AM

Nice example zoeyk.

I'm just looking at it quickly really, but I think the handle's (black's) loss of initiative has more to do with the opening moves than the mid-game.

I vaguely remember certain times like this where black move 5 ... K13 is actually the best move. Again, I just looked at it quickly, but that rings a bell from the old early 80s newsletters on the subject. Someone feel free to disprove this suggestion if it's wrong.

There are different opening setups and responses based on the various options that white (the hammer's head) might try. Again, this is an important and complex position that should be studied.

zoeyk

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 9, 2008, 10:44 PM

here are new games of the hammer with me vs redsky. interesting







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redsky_iv

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 10, 2008, 2:44 AM

ummmm you forgot to mention the other games following that one where I trounced ya as black with the hammer Z You gots to wedge here man.......

zoeyk

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 10, 2008, 7:30 AM

wrong,..unless there was a canceled game that i don't remember...

if you look at the bottom game i posted youll see the last game we played. the game right before that one (which i have not posted) you beat me,..but in this last and final attempt i did a move change at the 11th move changing H9 into H10. H9 was a mistake. this new H10 move is solid. thus that trouncing only works in that variation if i go H9 in error.

and i am in no way stating that white can always force a win in the hammer opening,...but it might be true. ide like to see a tuff hammer black from someone that i can not solve.

i invite players to challenge me to the hammer unrated for fun and for research purposes.

thanks,
Z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
redsky_iv

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 10, 2008, 7:57 AM

black goes L11 its over......and there were the other games you didn't want to be finished so they wouldn't show in the db No disrespect, but white's hammer's toasty......

zoeyk

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 10, 2008, 10:01 AM

hmm yes. after further study i see only loss for white in the hammer opening. unless rich has something to share that i dont know of.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
redsky_iv

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 10, 2008, 5:46 PM

Damn, and here I was hopin' you'd get confident enough to put some rated white hammer games on the line Z....What a Yard Sale that woulda been Man, it's a tough job bein' right all the time

zoeyk

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 10, 2008, 8:32 PM

well lets just say someone claimed that white can win the hammer through a series of complex moves and so it sparked my interest to investigate it. i was curious

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sjustice

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 11, 2008, 6:54 AM

Hammer time...now that brings back memories.

In the first game 6...J12 is the wrong line. Instead, 6...P11 7.O11,P12* 8.O11,L9 is a clear win for black. White can play some with his stretch three, but nothing is good.

I agree that there are times when having the head of the hammer instead of the handle is okay depending on where the extra stones are at. But, in general having the handle is good enough for a win. In the above example, it was not the hammer, but instead giving up the initiative to block a stretch three that really was not the threat that it first appeared to be that caused the problem.

Okay, now that I have pulled out the Winter 1984 Pente Newsletter, it is time for me to put back all my little Pente stuff and play some other game that might actually make me some money...

sjustice

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 11, 2008, 7:43 AM

Let me reply to my own comment...

The above is an example when extending was correct since it got rid of the troublesome stone which ended the opponent's threat and allowed me to keep the initiative...a rather crushing one at that.

richardiii

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From: Huntsville, Alabama
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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 13, 2008, 7:12 PM

The point not yet made is that The Hammer represents a completely unnecessary disadvantage to white's normal tactical superiority in an opening. Though the head formed by white's 4th puts him in sente, his continuance is weak and forces an often ineffectual defensive effort from there, relying on black to make a mistake in order to regain initiative. The Wedge is a much better route for white's 3rd as it allows white to maintain a tactical advantage.

That being said; The Hammer is a very fun opening to play, and can provide a superior white player the means to create a more competitive game for black.

To be more blunt; "It'll be a cold day in hell, before I would be caught dead playing The Hammer as white against the likes of any of you butt crunchers!"


Message was edited by: richardiii at Oct 13, 2008 3:25 PM


redsky_iv

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Re: white wins the hammer as the head?
Posted: Oct 13, 2008, 7:41 PM

Thx for the breakdown in layman's terms O' King of the Tree-Climbin' Butt-Crunch Brigade :P

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