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Topic: Odd game analysis by dweebo
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dweebo

Posts: 1,032
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Powell, OH
Age: 37
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Odd game analysis by dweebo
Posted: Oct 11, 2006, 8:46 PM

Ok, here is an odd game I played yesterday against slacker (hope you don't mind me posting this one slacker). I thought it might be an interesting game to post some analysis on, not because I played well (I lost) but just because it might be interesting to describe why I made certain moves (and why they were good/bad).

I'm black and played a new stupid/weird/unknown second move (I just checked in the db and its new). Its definitely not a good move, but I was just seeing what would happen.

K10,N8,G10,M10

slacker followed with a good move I'm pretty sure.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8

At this point I spent a few minutes wondering what I was thinking with M10. I then summarize #1 I have no offensive move #2 If I try any sort of blocking moves near his multiple offensive options slacker is a good enough player that he will have no problems quickly defeating me. For example some beginner players might try H9, but slacker would probably then go G8, that doesn't look very good to me.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,H9,G8

So already I'm fighting to stay in this game. I like to maintain some possible offensive moves later (rather than go on defense with no chance of recovery,) so I need to move somewhere near my other pieces but also realize that slacker is about to go on offense next move.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9

I play M9, figuring he'll not worry about me and go H9, etc. I'll go K7 to block which opens another possible offensive move for me at L8 maybe sometime later in the game. M9 also gives me a couple of offensive moves later with O7,M8,etc. if I can get a chance. Its still a long shot but better than playing defense right! As expected we end up here.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12

And then what I was hoping for

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10

Normally slackers move at J10 in a similar position would be a great move. But here it doesn't work as well because if he tries J9 or G8 my cap at L10 would give me a tria and put me immediately in a good position, like this:

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,J9,L10

slacker decides to block my cap, good choice I think.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10

Well looky here, I actually have a chance for an offensive move now, woohoo! Hmm, what should it be though. I thought about G8 for awhile since it opens up 2 other possible caps for me, but after trading caps I didn't like it:

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,G8,O7,K11,J10

M8 would probably have been my best move, I could see it going here and it looks decent for me from this point:

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,M8,O7,M9,M11,K9


But for some reason I instead went L8, and he captured.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7

Hmm, why did I go L8? If I try it again with M9 he can block at J8 and have one of those scary X0X0X setups (anyone have a name for that?) I really hate allowing that to happen so my attention went back to G8, now it appears better to me because its sort of a tricky position, if he tries to block at K11, then M9, he blocks and I cap at J12 and have another threatening cap at K11, like this:

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,G8,K11,M9,J6,J12

Or if he tries M9, we'll end up here which I could live with (though its still bad):

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,G8,M9,K11

So here is what actually happened.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,G8,J6

At which point I decide capturing is best and slacker goes back on offense, doh how did that happen?

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,G8,J6,K11,J7

I block at J9 to preserve possibility of capturing at J10 If I blocked at J5 he could go J10, and I'd have to block at J9 giving him a chance at a juicy double keystone pair sitting at J9,H10. He extends and threatens the keystone pair with G11, that is most certainly the best move.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,G8,J6,K11,J7,J9,J5,J4,G11

For me to block at K8 seems like a bad idea since I can then be capped at M8 and have to play it again. Plus blocking doesn't really help me offensively and it would allow him to position himeself better without me having any lasting offensive moves. So I played H9 instead

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,G8,J6,K11,J7,J9,J5,J4,G11,H9

slacker then wisely doesn't capture the keystone pair at K8 but instead goes K9.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,G8,J6,K11,J7,J9,J5,J4,G11,H9,K9

Here is where I remarked that it isn't often you have a chance to create an open 4 plus a capture and that is not the best move! J10 would have allowed him to keep capturing keystone pairs until he won by captures. I played K8 but all I was really doing was delaying my capture fate. He continues on with K9 knowing that my J10 open 3 continues to be a false threat and pretty quickly he does me in with captures.

K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,G8,J6,K11,J7,J9,J5,J4,G11,H9,K9,K8,K9,H7,G9,J9,M11,N12,F9,H7,M8,H6,K8


Game over, well done slacker. I don't think either of us played the perfect game but it was certainly not dull.

Let me know if you enjoy this sort of analysis, I will try to post analysis of positions that I think illustrate an important strategy or principle.

And I'm sure there will be some people who will post something like "you should have gone M9 at move 13" (I just made that up). Like I said, I'm sure there were better moves for me at various points, the point of my analysis here is more to show my thought process as I recall it.

-dweebo

Pente Rocks!

karlw

Posts: 970
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 36
Re: Odd game analysis by dweebo
Posted: Oct 11, 2006, 10:18 PM

g10 is tough to beat.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Odd game analysis by dweebo
Posted: Nov 12, 2006, 7:14 AM

Hey Dweebo! This is a great feature!

My two cents on your game shown here. I really like your 3rd move to M9 -- that reminds me a lot of my own Player 2 style. The way it played out from there was a nice trap. He saw it at the last minute though and blocked the capture. However, as you pointed out in your analysis, that was the key fleeting moment where YOU had the initiative! His move was defensive and it allowed you to begin making forcing moves. The question is, where is the winning line, if any?

When you discussed the possibility of playing M8, you showed it playing out to here:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,M8,O7,M9,M11,K9


You had said this might have been promising, but at a quick glance, I see this position losing to G8:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,M8,O7,M9,M11,K9,G8


One likely way this would play out is that black would extend and make 2 captures, but white then regains the lead with F7:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,M8,O7,M9,M11,K9,G8,M7,M6,N12,M11,L10,F7


Blocking high leads here:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,M8,O7,M9,M11,K9,G8,M7,M6,N12,M11,L10,F7,J10,K10,J10,L8


Although it seems like white has not made a forcing move here, white still has the advantage, since any tria made by black would be preempted with a force out on the left side:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,M8,O7,M9,M11,K9,G8,M7,M6,N12,M11,L10,F7,J10,K10,J10,L8,N9,H8,K8,F8,E8,F10


If there was any chance to win this one, you may have been on the right track with L8. But, when you were worried about replacing your stone at M9 because he could block low and create a stretch 3 -- that's precisely where you should have probably played. Otherwise, why play L8 to begin with? After all, if he had not capped, he could have blocked low with the stretch 3 the first time you played it! But, on the next move, following up with M8 would lead to a similar losing position as described above. Instead, play the tria at M11! Although this may not seem like it leads anywhere, don't underestimate your diagonal. No matter if your opponent blocks high or low, the next (sort of complex) move I would suggest might be L11. The board would look like so:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,M9,J6,M11,M12,L11


First of all, L11 blocks the immediately deadly force moves of your opponent, but it also creates a subtle threat out at O11 that would beat any tria to the punch! Try tinkering with that position. I played out a few variations with some success, but have not exhausted the analysis -- it may or may not be a win for black from there. But M8 and the other L8 options were certainly not as good. Let me know if I missed anything obvious! lol

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Odd game analysis by dweebo
Posted: Nov 12, 2006, 7:47 AM

Haha, so, did you find it? Yes, there WAS an obvious flaw in the above solution! When I said "No matter if your opponent blocks high or low..." well, it makes a HUGE difference! (A testament to a basic principle that you should think hard about which side to block on!) If the opponent blocks low, a force threat is created that is not countered in any way by L11 or other similar moves:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,L8,O7,M9,J6,M11,M8,L11


Given this, the suggested line is no good either. I also tried looking at M7 as a possible alternative (split 3 tria), but it ended with the same fate as M8 UNLESS the opponent capped right away instead of blocking. If you were playing an opponent that you think may have taken the cap, you could try this:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,M7


The opponent wins if he blocks high (similar to if you had played M8), but if he caps, you could next move directly to M7 and get the board looking something like this, a sure win:


K10,N8,G10,M10,J8,M9,H9,K7,F11,E12,J10,H10,L10,M7,O7,L7,J7,J9,K8,J6,G11,H10,J7,M9


Again, this is only an option by gambling that your opponent will make a certain type of mistake (taking a meaningless pair instead of looking to block). It is not a sure win based on gaining initiative at the position discussed. Perhaps someone else out there will find a winning line from that position...

dweebo

Posts: 1,032
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Powell, OH
Age: 37
Home page
Re: Odd game analysis by dweebo
Posted: Nov 13, 2006, 4:21 PM

Hey up2ng, thanks for adding to the discussion

Honestly it is too early for me to think it through fully, but glad you were enjoying playing around with one of my silly games

I think this sort of feature is a great idea but I find it a little hard to read. What would be REALLY cool is to do the same thing but allow the player to move back and forth through your analysis using << < > >> type buttons.

I have toyed around with a tool that does just that for quite a few years but never really got anywhere with it.

-dweebo

Pente Rocks!
up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Odd game analysis by dweebo
Posted: Nov 15, 2006, 2:24 AM

Would be good to have both options available -- perhaps a *snapshotboard* tag and a *multiboard* tag with *board* subtags or something. If you create a board with arrows, you'd also have to create a caption area below that scrolls as you scroll through the board (sort of like the tutorials if I recall).
So, it would look something like:

*multiboard*
...*board* moves listed here */board*
...*caption* text here */caption*
...*board* more moves here */board*
...*caption* more text here */caption*
*/multiboard*

This would be good if you want a single click of the > to advance several moves ahead to another position or to branch off to another option for the same position, etc.

If you just wanted to scroll move by move through an entire build up to a single position, you could create a third tag like *completegameboard* and so on.

LOL, always enjoy making suggestions that will take a lot of work to implement that I won't be doing any of! Hehe.

Anyway, a final suggestion would be to make the interface easier so the person doesn't have to actually type in the whole string with the correct case sensitive tags and options and with the proper spacing. If there were some way have the screen available in a popup or something that is like the board you use in the Games History and let someone just click the stones into place and save that snapshot back into the forum post then you'd definitely be a hero.

You're doing a great job as always Dweebo!
Happy Coding!
-- up2ng

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