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Topic: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
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watsu

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Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 9, 2019, 11:20 PM


Interesting end game; 19. ... O7 + 20. ... Q7?


Message was edited by: watsu at Mar 9, 2019 11:23 PM

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney


haijinx

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Registered: Jan 20, 2019
From: Salem Oregon
Age: 48
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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 9, 2019, 11:28 PM

All my bad games are showing up...yay!

There's lots to be said about this game, but sticking to the later errors rather than my early one, I think that

1) 18 L4 crushes black

2) Likewise, 22 L3 seems a quicker win

I kept on getting false hopes, but the pairs don't seem to be there...

3) 19. ... O7 + 20. ... Q7?

Doesn't this fall apart after the capture on Q8?


Message was edited by: haijinx at Mar 9, 2019 11:38 PM


Message was edited by: haijinx at Mar 9, 2019 11:39 PM


watsu

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 9, 2019, 11:37 PM

Let's back that up to 18. ... O7 and 19. ... Q7, I think...

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
haijinx

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 9, 2019, 11:43 PM

What happens with

18 ... O7
19 Q8 ??

It seems like white wins on pairs here...no?

watsu

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 9, 2019, 11:50 PM

I should postpone analysis until I can open the DB and push stones in the future

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
haijinx

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 9, 2019, 11:51 PM

There's:

18 ... O7
19 Q8 O6
20 O8 P8
21 Q7 P6!
22 O13

can't be stopped...

and

18 ... O7
19 Q8 O8
20 P7 R9
21 O6

followed by O13...

karlw

Posts: 946
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 10, 2019, 8:50 PM

If I can put in my two cents here, I think every part of this game is excellently played (especially moves 4-18, after which White does miss a few easier wins, as has been pointed out already) and highly instructive--except the first moves!

Maybe I'm just revealing my prejudices, but I think after 1 K10,L8, there's no reason to play anything other than 2 K7, given its clear status as the gold standard of White openings (in the pente.org DB with 1800+ vs. 1800+, it has over 1600 games, more than double the next highest, and win % of nearly 70%, compared with 54, 46, 58 for the next three most common replies). And Black's reply J9 also seems strange to me. Why not something like J10, blocking the Keystone and threatening continuations such as L9 or J8? L6 also seems to mess with White's plans (L7 can be met with J6). After these couple of strange moves, the game starts getting real good.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
haijinx

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 10, 2019, 9:48 PM

Thanks for looking at this...I'll reply more about J9 later.

As chuchaki and I don't seem to be headed back to this line, I realized during the game that I rushed my move 12. I'm pretty sure 12...M7 wins for black.

haijinx

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 10, 2019, 10:54 PM

Back home now...yes, I think J10 is better now. Switched around to it.

As a L8 fanatic, I agree with you and up2ng about this.

While I love alternate moves and really think there's some variation of Pente to fix the P1/P2 disparity, with current state of opening theory, K7 is the most testing move of L8 in real play. It might force black into more mainstream (wedge?) lines as his best bet....and that's not a great one.

I thoroughly agree with up2ng....I'll look for the link later....[edit: it's a 2009 discussion started by zoeyk, Topic: It is time to review Karlw's Opening Theory. Not sure how to make the link work...] that all of the four cardinal moves of four spaces are blown for white (ok, that might be more extreme), with the exception again being the one forcing close quarters combat, K6. It's not winnable I think with best play by black, but it's more challenging than the other three directions. Basically, a move of four spaces has let black equalize at best.

There are other replies to L8 that give me trouble and that I have poor results with but it's my suspicion that those are deficits in my play rather than a lack of resources in the position.

For what it's worth, I also think there's quite a bit of room left in Pente opening theory. The number of players and number of years versus number of positions just isn't exhaustive....and especially with the similarity in styles and outlooks. If you look at the centers of development, like a group of Oklahoman LEO students...where are the hypermoderns? Well, brf, xtraclassy, etal might fit that bill...

Rambling...

OK, that's my newbie prejudice...maybe in another thousand games I'll feel only some modification of Pente can save it...I'm open to that. I'm even working on one with a random starting position, something analogous to Fischer Random Chess which is designed to negate opening memorization...essentially purifying opening theory back to concepts instead of lines.

I'm just not there yet...(sorry watsu)


Message was edited by: haijinx at Mar 10, 2019 11:06 PM

watsu

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 10, 2019, 11:20 PM

I haven't exhaustively analysed it, just a quick look, but O7, perhaps in combo with line 5 moves seems to nullify a P2 win at move 12.

Recent high level members of the site would leave out brf, as he's been here for ages, but might include such names as
Lupulo, novatis, jethrofree, be_water and a bit further back zoeyk. All have added high quality play to the site. Also, ivans73.
Not that their playing style is necessarily that different from older ones.


Message was edited by: watsu at Mar 10, 2019 11:29 PM

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
karlw

Posts: 946
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 11, 2019, 4:49 AM

@watsu:

Wait now I'm curious: which generation of pente players do I fall under? More recent, older, or somewhere in between?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
watsu

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 11, 2019, 6:25 AM

@karlw - I typed a lengthy reply as to why I would put you in late older vs. Zk's early younger but the reCAPTCHA monster ate it.
Short version:
Zk is younger than you b/c

You wrote this 10 months before he arrived:
https://www.pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=2925&start=0&tstart=-1

When Zk lost his first P1 game to you, you were around 500 rating points apart

You gave Dmitri King his last P1 loss here and there are no DB records of games between DK and ZK.

However, I didn't feel the need to mention your name to haijinx regardless of generations for three reasons:

1. Because you are active and ZK isn't, haijinx can see your name on the leaderboard and not ZK's.
2. Haijinx has already lost a TB set to you, so if he's smart (and I think he is) he'll be studying your games already.
3. You are both high seeds in March Madness (currently 1. and 2.) so unless he really is out of it, he'll be poring over every move he can find of yours in the DB looking for exploitable weaknesses

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
haijinx

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 11, 2019, 12:56 PM

First, I used an undefined-to-here chess term, hypermodern, the other day. Here's a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermodernism_(chess)

The hypermoderns revolutionized opening theory in chess. I summarize it like this in Pente-speak: they figured out that white's aggressive tactical expansions from move 1 could often be met by aggressive tactical responses from black. They figured out that as white has a solid positional edge (move 1 benefit), solid positional expansions beget asymmetrical tactical situations in white's favor.

There's more about occupation and control of the "center", but that's less applicable to Pente as the center of conflict moves more in Pente.

I included brf in this list because his playing style is I think not mainstream. For example, he relishes in playing early leading pairs to control positions. watsu mentioned jethrofree's opening style in passing so I imagine there's another. Those people who look at mainstream dogma and find the exceptions...they refine it.

I'm a newbie making this assessment though, so it could be off.

With so few players from such similar backgrounds in the early days, I don't know that opening theory is set in Pente. There have been waves of opening work though and karlw certainly has done heavy lifting.

I understand I might be a minority about the done-ness of Pente opening theory. Might be wrong too. Newbie.

Anyway, my earlier hypermodern comment was more about opening style (than place in history). That and being counter to the mainstream. I sorta look at karlw as a mainstream exemplar. Rightly or wrongly.

Oh, I read some opening theory discussions in the forums too. karlw always pops up. I'm well aware. And we've played two sets...I boast a very happy 25% against him. I'm lucky enough to have given him his last P1 loss here (unless something happened overnight).

It was a gift though and I expect the next meeting to be an even more painful blanking at the hands of karlw than the last one.

watsu

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Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 11, 2019, 4:46 PM

I wondered whether that was your reference. I'm not particularly familiar with chess theory, but it did ring a vague bell. Brf does occasionally venture out of the standard, but is also extremely familiar with the wedge, so I'd say he might be pushing boundaries out a bit rather than revolutionizing openings. Up2ng was very good at coming up with new P1 lines.
However, I think that once Pente got picked up by serious renju players overall Pente theory from the 80s was simply confirmed. Nosovs, VBarykin and virag to name just a few are all strong renju players and would have poked holes in opening theory were there any holes to poke. Pente for a renju player is mostly like riding a bike with training wheels attached would be for Lance Armstrong. Virag co proved that unrestricted renju is a sure first player win. Captures throw a few curves in, but nothing a solid renju player playing TB can't handle in their sleep. Just my opinion, since I'm not actually a renju player myself, but based on the Pente games I've seen between two renju players (check out the virag vbarykin game in the aesthetics thread for an example) I think it's borne out by evidence.
And yet, in real time swap Pente games at mindoku I've beaten a couple of highly rated Estonian renju players who were unfamiliar with the hammer.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
pente_gon

Posts: 46
Registered: Dec 26, 2017
Re: Game: chuchaki vs. haijinx 03/09/2019
Posted: Mar 11, 2019, 5:52 PM

I think 19th move was last call for black. For example: 19. O13 is winning in my opinion. I don't want to show next moves because there are few different way to defend it but I'm open to play it not rated and test it. And it was better to play O13 in move 18th.

@Watsu: you wrote that lost with Karlw was last as P1 for Dmitriking. Maybe you meant in live game but in turn-based he had 3 more losses as P1 in last 2 years.

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