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Topic: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
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watsu

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Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 12, 2017, 9:46 PM

I've always felt that D Pente wasn't ideally implemented here; I feel there should be no restrictions on where the first four stones can be placed on the board instead of having the player who picks the position required to place their first stone at K10 as in other games. I think the fairest four stone positions can potentially occur where one side has a shape advantage but one or more of their continuing lines of play are hampered by the edge of the board. With K10 as a required stone this situation is unlikely to occur.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney


dmitriking

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Age: 40
Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 13, 2017, 8:25 AM

agreed.

rainwolf

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 13, 2017, 10:24 AM

I'll look into it. I don't foresee this to be a quick fix though.


Message was edited by: rainwolf at Oct 13, 2017 5:11 PM
yes, it's going to be ton of work.

\_(ツ)_/
rainwolf

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 16, 2017, 8:45 PM

I made the changes to allow for the 1st stone to be played anywhere in D-Pente and DK-Pente. If you're playing on mobile, you should update the app first.

The database still needs to undergo changes to allow a search for an off-center first stone. That's for later.

\_(ツ)_/
watsu

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 16, 2017, 11:40 PM

Awesome, thank you, rainwolf! I look forward to seeing how position proposers get creative with this new freedom for positions.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
rainwolf

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 22, 2017, 11:45 AM

Database look-ups should work now too, Android is updated, iOS will be available when Apple approves.

There's no way to test yet since there are no games in the database yet with off-center first stones.

Note that, for now, if you search the database with 0 moves for these games, the database will only return stones that are off-center. I think that's desirable for now since the games in the database are heavily biased towards first move center stones.

\_(ツ)_/
watsu

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 22, 2017, 3:07 PM

Well done, and we now have our first game in the db with an off center stone. I plan to learn from my mistakes before playing that line rated, lol.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
mikaelh

Posts: 21
Registered: Nov 24, 2016
From: Sweden
Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 22, 2017, 8:22 PM

I doubt that this change will improve the game.
I suggest that we only try this out with D-Pente first and let DK-Pente be unchanged so far.

rainwolf

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 22, 2017, 8:33 PM

it's already changed for both games and rolling it back for one game is mildly tedious.

If there's a good reason you think it will be detrimental for the game, I might consider putting in the work and rolling it back, but I like the argument that a freely placed first stone allows more variation as the edge of the board and possibly corners can come directly into play.

\_(ツ)_/
dmitriking

Posts: 375
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Age: 40
Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 23, 2017, 2:56 AM

I don't think it matters too much one way or the other; but, I like the idea of complete freedom for the person setting the first 4 stones.

then again.... hmm.

Let's say someone is confident in his ability to play as "player 2." Myself, for example. Rather than setting up a position in which the other player might be able to choose a side with an advantage, I could just put a stone at each of the 4 corners and offer a swap. The opponent will obviously pick white and will probably play in the center, thus turning D-Keryo Pente into regular keryo pente.

Thoughts?

Speaking of which. May I suggest changing the listed name of DK-Pente to D-Keryo-Pente?

For starters, one of my friends thought that I or Dmitri Krasnonosov had invented Dk-Pente (we both have initials DK), but also, I would prefer that the word "Keryop" appear in full in the title.

I challenged someone to DK Pente and within the first few moves in each game, my opponent played into a 3-stone capture, making me wonder if the opponent didn't realize w were playing Keryo.

watsu

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 23, 2017, 3:55 AM

Players can always choose to offer positions with K10 as the first placed stone if they wish. Whether their opponent will or not is an open question, but presumably players can find others who also prefer having the center stone in play at the beginning. As far as playing 4 corners and swapping, that would become unrestricted (no tournament rule) keryo, which though I don't know if I've ever played it I would imagine it to offer have a strong P1 advantage.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
rainwolf

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 23, 2017, 9:38 AM

> Speaking of which. May I suggest changing the
> listed name of DK-Pente to D-Keryo-Pente?

Perhaps in the future. I, sadly, made large chunks of the mobile apps depend on the names used for the games rather than generic numerical identifiers. Aside from that, I did initially use D-Keryo-Pente but the name became too long for tidiness (even more with the "Speed" prefix) on the dashboard and especially in the mobile apps where space is already constrained.

As for rules, on occasion I also encounter someone who doesn't seem to know Keryo allows 3-captures, but attribute that to them not knowing/reading the rules before they start.

\_(ツ)_/
dmitriking

Posts: 375
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Age: 40
Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 23, 2017, 3:00 PM

"As far as playing 4 corners and swapping, that would become unrestricted (no tournament rule) keryo, which though I don't know if I've ever played it I would imagine it to offer have a strong P1 advantage."

Yeah, I didn't think of this last night when I posted. I was somewhat intoxicated and thus didn't think the entire thing through. I definitely don't want to play as player 2 without the opening restriction.

Disregard my post. The 4 corners play is definitely a bad idea.

mikaelh

Posts: 21
Registered: Nov 24, 2016
From: Sweden
Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Oct 23, 2017, 5:34 PM

Well, I guess that the game is so new that it is hard to prove that this untried change is "detrimental" to DK-Pente. I respect that it would be a lot of work to rolling it back and therefore I do not demand it.
Maybe we did not had to be so hasty in the first place, changing the rules of such a new game (that I proposed and are thankful that you introduced on this site).

rainwolf

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Re: Improving D Pente from its current implementation
Posted: Jul 13, 2020, 6:43 AM

Since a lot of play can happen near the edges now, I wonder if the edges of the board should have been allowed to be used for captures, much like in Go.

\_(ツ)_/
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