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Topic: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Replies: 10   Views: 19,779   Pages: 1   Last Post: Sep 15, 2014, 4:57 PM by: invictus

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lupulo

Posts: 31
Registered: Sep 27, 2013
From: Germany
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human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Aug 10, 2014, 4:18 PM

vic already posted a pic of this game in the general forums [thx for that!]..
I just thought it could be fun and interesting to watch the sequence of moves more detailed here.

..and this strange game is definitely worth it to take a closer look at!

thank you nodice for this creative peace of pente!




Sapere aude.


invictus

Posts: 264
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Aug 10, 2014, 9:35 PM

very nice lup!
much better seeing the the move sequence
its rather artistic i think
nodice can easily win it way before he actually does
but forces the ai to this setup.
obviously the ai's are predictable.
but fun to see how easily manipulated.

p.s. good to be human!

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 264
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Aug 10, 2014, 9:56 PM

p.s.s.

also a great lesson in initiative...
rule your board!

bloodied but unbowed
nodice

Posts: 7
Registered: Oct 28, 2009
Re: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Aug 11, 2014, 12:52 PM

Obviously the goal here is to get 9. So you have to suspend conventional pente logic. I was not the first to do this kind of thing, but it looked like fun. My impression of mm_ai8 is that it will defend a 5th capture over 5 in a row, but it will not move into a 5th capture. So if you get 4 captures, you have a lot more control, but the threat of the 5th capture is what keeps the center of the 9 open until the end.

mm_ai8's 3rd move was not strong, but by the 5th move a solid win was pretty clear. At move 16, I can see how to get the 4th capture, and I can see the line on column J with the final move at j8. So there is time to build the top half of the 9. But to build the bottom half you have to force 4 more free moves, which happens when mm_ai8 makes the oo_oo at move 22.

With enough starts, you can get mm_ai8 to make these same moves. My goal is to make a 9x9, but it is also cool to get an unblocked 9, or get the 5th or more capture at the same time as you get a 9.

invictus

Posts: 264
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Aug 11, 2014, 5:07 PM

wassup killas!
lupulo is right in that i did in fact post twice accidentally
was not my intent to spam but was perhaps still the result
apologies to any i may have annoyed by this
i have wriiten rainwolf and asked him to remove my two posts and let lupulos be the main remaining thread

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 264
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Aug 11, 2014, 6:39 PM

many thanks to rainwolf for cleaning up the forum expeditiously!
now .... back to the table
i am wondering how many ways ai8 can be manipulated?
for instance
can you make a diamond of fours?
or as nodice suggested a 9x9?
mebbe a9x9 cross?
a triangle perhaps?
would be interesting to see the ways the ai can be forced into various forms.
if any embark on such a quest then pls post so we may all admire and analyze...

bloodied but unbowed
zoeyk

Posts: 2,007
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
Home page
Re: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Aug 12, 2014, 3:51 AM

image here was originally posted by invictus:

http://pente.org/servlet/JiveServlet/download/1-230200-251439-369/again.png


and


http://pente.org/servlet/JiveServlet/download/1-230181-251301-364/cwazy.png

.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
nodice

Posts: 7
Registered: Oct 28, 2009
Re: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Aug 15, 2014, 10:56 PM

Earlier, I mentioned a free-move. Whereas a free-move is when you can move wherever you wish, but mm_ai8 is still obligated to block somewhere else because it is in double jeopardy. For instance, creating a 4 that is blocked on one end does not create a free move, and an open ended 4 nets you only one free move (in the above example, move 18 is a free-move at j11). Likewise, making a move that threatens a 5th capture does not create a free-move, but moving inside of a oo_oo creates one free move if you have already made 4 captures. Etc.

Free-moves makes it much easier to create a 9 or other patterns. They can be used to create 3's that lead to 4's, block or even pre-block a vulnerable capture of your lines, etc.

Which 4 mm_ai8 decides to block depends on many factors. It seems that it wants to create offense where possible. The next priority would be to threaten a devastating capture. Other that that, it seems that it will block 4's in the order they were created.

Another predicable behavior of mm_ai8, is that it will not create a 5th capture to block the threat of a another 5th capture. Therefore, its possible to get 6, 7, 8, maybe even 9 captures!

I haven't given much thought to other patterns that can be created, but since this is a one move at a time game, any pattern needs a single move finale. And threatening a 5th capture at that location is how to keep it clear until the end. I have been working on a 9x9 for a long time, and I expect it will take while to find that solution. It would be fun to see what others can come up with.

nodice

Posts: 7
Registered: Oct 28, 2009
9x9
Posted: Sep 14, 2014, 1:49 PM

I don't know how to post a game here like Lupulo did, but Table 4 has an example of a 9x9 there as long as the connection lasts. I tried to get a 9x9 and a 5th capture at the same time on the 39th move, with a threat at G12 on the 38th move. But mm_ai8 would have none of that, and blocked at K12. Showing that at least under this circumstance, ai8 will create a 5th capture to block another 5th capture. Which was the only reason that I found a way to use H10. So this is version two, where the 9x9 is achieved on the 38th move.

Here's the move sequence if you want to try it against ai8 yourself:

1. K10 M10; 2. O10 J9; 3. M8 J11; 4. L9 J10; 5. N7 O6; 6. J12 N9; 7. M12 L11; 8. K12 O8; 9. P7 J8; 10. J7 L12; 11. H12 K11; 12. F12 G12; 13. L13 M14; 14. K12 H11; 15. G11 G9; 16. M11 M13; 17. M11 F10; 18. H9 J13; 19. G11 H12; 20. J12 E11; 21. N14 L13; 22. D12 N15; 23. L14 O16; 24. P17 N13; 25. K13 P13; 26. O13 M15; 27. P12 M16; 28. M12 G15; 29. M17 K8; 30. Q12 H10; 31. H12 H10; 32. E13 F8; 33. E7 O12; 34. R12 L15; 35. K16 K15; 36. J15 H14; 37. L17 F16; 38. E17 K12

lupulo

Posts: 31
Registered: Sep 27, 2013
From: Germany
Home page
Re: 9x9
Posted: Sep 14, 2014, 8:58 PM







Sapere aude.
invictus

Posts: 264
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: human strikes back: poor mm_ai8 gets pushed around the board!!
Posted: Sep 15, 2014, 4:57 PM

nodice strikes again!
awesome stuff killa!

bloodied but unbowed
Replies: 10   Views: 19,779   Pages: 1  
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