Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 26, 2003, 4:30 AM
To all players -
I would like to see the wait limit increased from 5 mins. to 10 mins. for players to get back to their table if they have been disconnected before their opponent receives options as to what to do. Many times, especially people with dial-up connections, cannot get back on for 7 to 8 mins. I think that this would alleviate a lot of problems with opponents having to decide what to do when someone doesn't return in 5 minutes.
Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 26, 2003, 9:44 AM
i disagree 110% ten minutes is way to long if i'm in a hurry i am not waiting around...and the way i see it is you are taking a gamble playing rated at all because if you get disconnected, then you don't get back you may have lost points..ohh well
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Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 26, 2003, 10:42 AM
No that is not a gamble cause if the person you are playing leaves you always have the option to also leave the room...even after 1 min and it simply cancels the game. Because of this I vote yes on the 10 min thing. Or maybe there could be a button like a snooze alarm, and give an option to simply wait another 5 min.
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Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 26, 2003, 2:50 PM
emerald brings up a good (and not widely known) point. That if you're willing to disconnect yourself after your opponent leaves, the game is automatically cancelled.
The server works that way because it is the easiest thing to do. Plus, it seems weird to save a table for 2 players who are not in the table. I suppose it might be possible to make it work. I know Yahoo games had some problems with this area to. They originally (several years ago) would save the game and then if those 2 players ever played again it would allow you to continue the game. Then they got rid of that and instead added a new statistic to each player's profile "Abandoned Games". I guess the thinking is to let other players know of the risk of a player abandoning the game. I don't really like the "Abandoned Games" thing for various reasons but thought I'd share it. As for saving the game, that is a possibility but it is alot of work and does complicate the system.
Another good idea I think emerald has mentioned before is show a timer for how long the player has been gone, counting down to 5 or 10 minutes (whatever the limit is). I'm thinking maybe the dialog box that shows up now after 5 minutes could show up immediately with this timer, a longer explanation of what has happened and what a players options are. They can: 1. Wait for player to return and game to resume 2. Resign now 3. Cancel after X minutes 4. Force resign after X minutes
The last 2 buttons on the dialog box would be disabled until the time limit is up.
I am ok with upping the time limit to something like 7 minutes as long as most players are for this and there are no valid points against it. I will begin working on a new and improved system for handling these disconnect problems in the next few weeks. If at that time there is still a majority I will add the 7 minute time-up to the release.
The only point I can see to a short time-up is like was mentioned earlier, a player might not have time to hang around for 10 minutes if the game was almost over and someone leaves. Not everyone spends all day playing pente (dmitiking ) and has time to wait around. I am not sure where most players are on this, whether they normally have time or don't I guess. That's why I think 7 minutes might be better, since it's only 2 more minutes than before.
Please everyone, voice your opinions so I know what to do! -dweebo
Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 26, 2003, 3:35 PM
Regarding Dweebo's posting of:
"Another good idea I think emerald has mentioned before is show a timer for how long the player has been gone, counting down to 5 or 10 minutes (whatever the limit is). I'm thinking maybe the dialog box that shows up now after 5 minutes could show up immediately with this timer, a longer explanation of what has happened and what a players options are. They can: 1. Wait for player to return and game to resume 2. Resign now 3. Cancel after X minutes 4. Force resign after X minutes
The last 2 buttons on the dialog box would be disabled until the time limit is up."
I think this is a great idea.
As for 5 minutes, 7 minutes, or ten minutes, so far I see three votes for ten minutes and one vote (littlebug) for keeping it at 5 minutes. Littlebug justified this with some BS about being in a hurry and not wanting to wait. What littlebug really wants is to be able to force resignations as quickly as possible because he has little chance of winning the game otherwise. He has essentially stated as much in discussions at a table.
What is being overlooked here is that long disconnects are not that common, and when they do happen, the player usually can make it back in 5-7 minutes. But in those rare cases where he cannot, he should be protected against having a resignation forced.
The whole argument about not wanting to wait or being in a hurry is inane. Any time you start a game, it may take a minimum of 20 minutes to play, if your opponent uses all of his clock, so if you are not prepared to possibly wait ten minutes if he gets disconnected, then don't start a game (or play one unrated).
I am going to repeat something just to make it abundantly clear -- getting disconnected is NOT an "error" by the player who got disconnected, nor it is his fault (contrary to what some might believe). The other day, Gary and I got booted by the server (as well as several ohters) and we could NOT return for about ten minutes! We assumed that the whole site had went down, but it hadn't, some had stayed there. But there was nothing we could do about this. Someone should not be penalized for a computer disconnect.
If you want to deny undos, that's your prerogative (you should tell your opponent this in advance, because most players here do accept them), but to penalize someone for a computer disconnect is not right. Those who do think forcing a resignation is in order, especially after only 5 minutes, probably do so under the justification of, "well, life isn't always fair." This is a cop-out and an extremely weak argument. Just because life isn't always fair doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it fair in what little ways we can.
I am also a bit troubled about the possibility that one player can leave after the other player has left and thus cancel the game instantly. I have no doubt that some players (well, at least one) would do this immediately, that if a player had an open 4 and got disconnected, this player would immediately leave and force a cancellation. This is just one more reason why I will not play this particular player in a rated game.
But, Dweebo, I think something should be done about this. In a tournament match, I think it would be terrible for a player to take advantage of this. Disconnections of a minute or less are a lot more common than the longer ones, and this would provide a way for people to cheapen the integrity of the games. Like you, I do not like the idea of abandoned games. Also, what you said about having the system suspend the game until both players are back is true, that might be too much of a task to undertake. But what about this one-- if a second player leaves the table after the first person has left, the game stays as is with both players having their 5, 7, or ten minute timer running. If one player returns, the other player's timer keeps running. If neither player returns, then when both players' timers expire the game gets cancelled. That sounds like it would be easier than the other soluation and also more fair.
Unfortunately, this whole issue has cast a cloud of suspcicion and distrust about these games. I am now inclined to ask an opponent before a match what his personal policies are regarding forcing cancellations immediately or resignations after 5 minutes, or if he would grant an undo if I accidentally misplace a stone (at A1, for example). If the answers to these questions are not to my liking than I probably shouldn't play this person. It is a shame it has come to that, but i don't like being f___ed over by people with no sense of sportsmanship. If someone really is pressed for time and says ahead of time "I would not be able to wait long for you to return," that is a different matter, but in that instance, I would probably suggest that we find a better time to play the game.
Some players have suggested that I am making too big of a deal out of this, that is is "just a game." I find it fascinating that the people who seem to have the worst sportsmanship often use this line as justification. If it is just a game, then be a good sport about it!
Do I care about my rating! Yes, you're damn right I care about it! I have worked very hard for it, and I am damn proud of it. It is very difficul to maintain, because I gain a patlry sum of points when I win and I lose a bunch when I lose a game. Given the time and effort I put into becoming a top-level player, I am not going to jsut sit back and say, "well, I just lost 32 hard earned rating points because my opponent is a jerk, but that's okay because it is only a game." If you want to do that, fine, but don't expect me to.
I get so fed up with the "It's just a game" remark. Many things in life are just a game. Baseball, football, chess, pool, ping-pong, these are all just games. But the point of a game is to WIN. Sure, some of you will say the point of it is to have fun, but, the rules of the game are based on WINNING. The whole idea in pente is to make 5 in a row. Why? Because that is how the game is WON. People invent new and clever lines in pente-- why? Because it is intrinsically enjoyable? Maybe, but mostly because these clever and new lines might WIN the game.
But, a desire to win should not become a "win at all costs" mentality. Gamesmanship matters. Do you want to be remembered as the player who whipped up a brilliant winning sequence in the face of certain defeat, or do you want to be remembered as the player who forces resignations?
I have been rambling for quite a bit now. I am open to feedback.
-Dmitri
If I do not accept a game invite right away, it means I will once I have fewer games in progress.
Posts:
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Registered:
Dec 16, 2001
From:
~THE BACK WOODS~
Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 27, 2003, 3:46 AM
I would like to see the time allowed for a player that has been disconnected during a game extended to at least 7 minutes, if not more.
I disagree with the whole gambling concept that some players are always referring to. When I play, I am simply trying to better my skills and at the same time, enjoy the great environment that has been created here at DSG; I am not coming here to gamble. If it was simply the points that I was after, then I would never play anyone that I did not stand a very strong chance of winning. 99% of the times I am disconnected from DSG, it is the fault of my PC. When this happens I must close everything I have open and reboot my computer. On the average, it takes me around 7-10 minutes to return to the site, sometimes even longer. I don’t think that I would have any problem with a player canceling a game that I was clearly going to win if I could not return from a disconnect within the time allowed I know I would not be happy with someone forcing my resignation knowing that I was going to win the game within the next couple of moves, or knowing that it was not clear as to who was going to win the game.
Dweebo has added the option to wait longer in the event your opponent does not make it back within 5 minutes, also the option to resign the game yourself. How many of you people out there would actually resign knowing your opponent was, without a doubt, going to win the game within the next few moves? I am thinking those of you who believe this site is about gambling would still force resignation, (just my guess). I for one am not afraid to admit when I have been outplayed, or just made careless errors, nor would I cancel the game or force a resignation, knowing I was about to lose. I would be more than willing to resign the game, given that option. If a player does not have time to wait for his opponent to return, then perhaps he could Email the game to himself and replay that game with his opponent at a later date? That would be a lot easier than having the server save the unfinished game.
In the even a player is disconnected during a tourney match, I do not think that a forced resignation should be counted towards the results of that match. Not allowing forced resignations is one of the rules at the Pente Addiction league for all tourney and ladder matches. I have not heard of anyone complaining about this rule. We have also have been allowing 13 minutes for a disconnected player to return during speed tourneys. That is not a written rule, as of yet, but just a decision that was made by several league members the first few times it occurred.
I had better stop blabbing on for now. Peace Out Pente Land Wyatt/Vitals
Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 27, 2003, 5:05 AM
I think the wait time should be increased to 10min, but at 5min the option to cancel should become available this gives players a realistic chance to get back in time to continue play. I have bin in a game were I had a sure win but I would not force a resignation on the player to get there points….. Instead I waited 23min for the player to return so that the game could finish in a fair way.
P.S. littlebug: 3days ago were you not 19????….. this sudden change in age adds to your outstanding credibility…..
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Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 27, 2003, 6:37 AM
I enjoy playing rated games on this site since it closely approximates the feel that I used to get when playing over-the-board with a live opponent. But, I've always been bothered by the possibility of being disconnected or unintentionally dropping a stone due to a technical glitch. In a live rated game when I'm sitting across the table, I would not grant an undo or give a concession on running out of time. If you put a stone on the wrong spot, that should be a lesson learned. If you have to leave the table due to a nature call, best make it quick because the clock's gonna tick. So, in that situation I agree with those who contend that's the way it is.
However, playing against someone over the internet is simply not the same. The other night I was playing against Arne who lives across the ocean. I'm not sure what he was going through, but we had a mighty thunder storm in Florida that lasted the four hours we played. The lightning popped, I jumped and then it would pop again and the lights would dim then it would pop some more and my cat would jump. Also, I would click my mouse intending to place a stone but had to wait and reclick several times. I understand that exceeding your time limit or misplacing a stone at DSG is not the same as doing so over-the-board. This seems to be a clear distinction that most players intuitively understand.
Winning due to a technical problem unrelated to the actual game does not appeal to me. Losing due to a technical problem is even less appealing.
I have to plead ignorance to the exact rules surrounding disconnects, but here's my opinion: 1. A player should have the right to cancel the game after a short wait. I agree with the notion that you should not have to wait long if the other guy gets disconnected. However, if your position is hopeless and you cancel just to get out, then you are a loser no matter what your rating. It is funny how people who are losing seem to be in a hurry while a guy who's winning has plenty of time to wait for his beleagured opponent to find his way back. 2. To force a resignation should take much more time than forcing a cancellation. The 7 to 10 minute suggestions seem about right. 3. No matter how long it takes me to get back, if I am able to do it before my time runs out, then I should still be in the game. In other words, if I had 18 minutes left when I disappeared and did not show back up for twelve minutes against an opponent who decided not to cancel, then I should still have at least 6 minutes to play.
I tried to make this post as long as Dmitri's, but there's a storm on the horizon.
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Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 27, 2003, 8:00 AM
DM, I have a cable modem and am almost never disconnected. May I suggest you get a nice computer and nice 24/7 high speed internet and then never risk a disconnect again. I don't think I have EVER lost a game here due to a disconnect...in fact I don't remember ever being d/c'ed other then when the server went down.
I use COX high speed internet and highly suggest them.
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Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 27, 2003, 8:03 AM
Ohhh...how about if you make the time the higher of 7 min or the amount of time they have left on the clock. Cause if you have 15 min left and you get disconnected you should be able to come back during that 15 min. Of course you should take a hit to your time left....maybe at like half or something.
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Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 27, 2003, 8:42 AM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Scott, Great points in your post!!!!! TY TY TY
In Scott’s post this was one thing he had listed: 3. No matter how long it takes me to get back, if I am able to do it before my time runs out, then I should still be in the game. In other words, if I had 18 minutes left when I disappeared and did not show back up for twelve minutes against an opponent who decided not to cancel, then I should still have at least 6 minutes to play.
One thing that came to my mind after reading Scott’s post was this; When playing a game with the timer set to at least the default settings, 20/0, why not give the player that was disconnected whatever time was left on their timer to return to the game before giving any options to wait, cancel or force resignation? The only option that would be available before the timer has run out would be the option to resign. Then after the timer has run out, give the other options, but only if the amount of time that has lapsed is equal to the 5, 7, or 10 minute wait, or whatever gets decided for the minimum wait time. After all, if you sit down to play a 20/0 minute game, or higher, then you have just committed yourself to a game that could very well take the full amount of time listed on the timer. Therefore there should be NO gripes about not having enough time to wait. IF you cannot be on the site for at least the time that is decided on before clicking play, then you should not be sitting down to play that game in the first place!
If the game is not rated, then perhaps there should be the option to just cancel the game after the minimum wait time has lapsed, or just disconnect yourself to end the game if you do not wish to wait at all for a player to return to an un rated game.
For games that are set with the timer less than the (X) amount of minutes given to return from a disconnect, then the players should have to wait before given the options to cancel, resign, wait longer, and force resignation.
Re: Extend wait limits when opponent is disconnected
Posted:
Feb 27, 2003, 1:19 PM
Emerald, I realize you said what you said good naturedly, but I must point out that if I could afford a new computer, I certainly would. I do not have much money, and my one indulgence this year will be the OKC oturnament. I am stuck with the computer I have. But, I suspect that my computer is less of an issue than the internet service (I do have a cable modem, but the service is iffy at times).
If I do not accept a game invite right away, it means I will once I have fewer games in progress.
) and has time to wait around. I am not sure where most players are on this, whether they normally have time or don't I guess. That's why I think 7 minutes might be better, since it's only 2 more minutes than before.