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Ya Just Can't Fix Stupid
Posted:
Nov 30, 2009, 10:16 PM
Yeah its annoying....right up there with being a completely obnoxious moron for the sake of your imaginary friend at 50 yrs plus. Gawd people are funny. He reminds me of that guy on monty python that gets his arms and legs chopped off and he's like "Come back here and fight!! You're nothing!!" What a stump. Well a bad apple every now and then makes us all that more grateful for the good ones, doesn't it?
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Re: AA support site for those in need.
Posted:
Dec 1, 2009, 12:25 AM
Whew!! Well AA says I don't drink enough to bother them with my insignificant problems but that I am in danger of robbing a bank from time to time. That's good, right?
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Reelin' it in now......
Posted:
Dec 1, 2009, 12:33 AM
Ok Alison's proposal sounds mmm mmmm good with one minor tweak IMO.....the options for giving and receiving should definitely be independently ticked to facilitate the advanced players pervasive inclination(s) to give and not receive. Amongst each other they pretty much don't do either, but with up n' comers most of them/us like to encourage reworking lines if an error is caught or pointed out to facilitate growth. Other than that it sounds whiz bang.
Re: Reelin' it in now......
Posted:
Dec 1, 2009, 12:50 AM
Thanks Erik,
In the case of Reds with good intentions, they simply would not click the checkbox because they would have no need to indicate that they would not be requesting undos and would want to allow them if asked by a lower ranked player under the circumstances you describe. So I don't think my proposal would need that tweak imo.
So far we have two in support, anyone else? I know dweebo is busy but if we all gang up on him and lobby him en masse, maybe he will just drop everything he is doing (looking after a baby, supporting the family etc) and fix this puppy before someone gets hurt.
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not being tricked to use Erik's post titles
Posted:
Dec 1, 2009, 6:13 AM
i support the idea alison, i just dont support bothering dweebo with scripting requests right now unless money is offered to him during the request. any thing less i would think not kosher.
but hey! just my feeble opinion
z
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
It seems simple to me. There is already a tacit agreement. Currently anyone can ask for an undo. It is up to your opponent to allow it or not. Everyone who plays here understands that. If you ask for an undo and your opponent doesn't allow it, suck it up and get on with your life. If you can't play without undos, remember that opponent and don't play him again. I see no need to do anything to change the site's undo rule. There are other sites where there is no undo option, the stone laid is the stone played. No one seems to have any trouble with it on those sites. Just for the record, I always allow undos, but I don't ask for them. [I did in the past, but I realized it was weakening my game, so now I don't.] Cheers
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: Undo rule
Posted:
Dec 6, 2009, 6:34 PM
Thank you blackkllab!
This question has come up several times in the past on the forums. This time around it went on for a full 3 pages before someone gave the correct answer.
There is nothing wrong with the site's software regarding this feature. A request for an undo is exactly that, a request. The opponent is under absolutely no obligation to accept it, and quite frankly I'm surprised that more people aren't denying undo requests. Now if it's an extremely obvious mouse slip in the corner of the board, use some common sense -- and yet, players should simply be more careful to not let their mouse slip! In tournament play, even a mouse slip like this is fair game, undos should never be expected to be granted in tournament play.
The ONLY change I could see happen in the software that may be an improvement is to change the text on the button to read "Request Undo" instead of simply "Undo" to make it even more clear that it is a request only and does not have to be granted. In fact, I think it used to say that at some point but was changed and simplified for asthetics. I could be wrong about that.
As suggested, go ahead and keep a list, in private, of opponents who have undo policies that you like. Do not berate players publically in the forums for denying undos because you will look a little silly in not understanding that a request for an undo does not have to be granted.
Another good suggestion -- Go ahead and ask your opponent what his policy is BEFORE starting a set. Especially if you are the sort of player who frequently asks for undos and gets very offended when those requests are denied. Now, on the other side, if someone actually asks you about your undo policy, please be honest and tell the truth. If your most accurate answer is "it depends on the situation", then say so. Players who blatently lie about this when asked point blank should be publically berated in the forums. This is simple common courtesy.
Amazingly, I don't think the following has been suggested. If you are overly sensitive to whether a player's undo policy will hurt your rating, then PLAY UNRATED! Problem solved! Now, if you're playing unrated, this is purely for fun (even more than it already should be) so go ahead and grant undos when asked, cuz why the heck not? If you want to be more formal about things and deny undos, then play rated.
Personally, I would be MUCH more concerned about whether a player will play one game with you as Player 1 and then bail on the set. This will destroy your ratings much more than having undo requests denied and THERE IS NOTHING CURRENTLY IN THE SOFTWARE TO PREVENT THIS. THE FACT THAT THIS SITE DOES NOT ENFORCE SETS AND USE SET-BASED RATINGS IS A REDICULOUSLY HUGE FLAW THAT SHOULD BE REMEDIED IMMEDIATELY. But I digress... I've already discussed that elsewhere in plenty of places and yet the software remains the same.
In general, just don't expect changes to the software at this point. The developer is busy with other projects. The site is already good and fun just the way it is.
I simply point out that the fact that this has come up several times before suggests that this will always be an issue that people raise. I offered a suggestion for modifying the software only to make the point that unless this is done then this exact discussion point will be raised again and again despite absolutely reasonable responses like yours.
I realize that dweebo's unavailability makes that proposal a non-starter but I put it out there if for no other reason than it needed to be said.
Also note that I have had several experiences where unrated undo requests have been denied. So this is not restricted to rated games. In fact I have found a much greater incidence of undo requests from people in unrated games. People vary in the way they view unrated play and we should not condemn people for not allowing undo's under any situation provided they are clear on their intentions ahead of time.
I think people actually (mostly) recognize that it is a request. I know the urge here is to reinforce that point in the forum, but I think this goes more to the point of the social dimension of real time play. If you were playing otb with a friend, unless a no-undo understanding had been reached, then you might expect to be able to undo a move or two here and there. The problem is that in here it feels like otb play but it isn't. So sometimes we forget that the person we are playing is not that same level of friend, but an anonymous competitor who has their own priorities. I think sometimes when a request is denied people can become upset on the basis that they expected the opponent to be friend-like and have trouble dealing with the realization that they are not. I think this will come up again and again precisely because each new generation of players that comes here has that same experience and rightly or wrongly develops similar expectations of the behavior their opponents.
Posts:
2
Registered:
Feb 3, 2004
From:
chicago, usa
Age:
34
Re: Undo rule
Posted:
Dec 10, 2009, 9:09 PM
Hey Everybody
anything that anybody has to say about the undo rule is an opinion and I would like to contribute my opinion on the matter...
I feel the 'undo' feature has it's place when a player has a 'misclick'. Allow me to explain my version of a 'misclick'.
For example, just a few moments ago I was in a match with xtraclassy. While I am far from the best pente player I obviously held the offensive advantage in this match. While moving my finger around on my laptops touch pad, my stone was accidentally placed where I had no intention to place it. As would be expected I asked for an undo. Information pertaining to my request being granted or denied by my opponent is intentionally omitted.
In my mind, for an opponent to allow his/her competitor to undo a move in this situation is a reflection of good sportsmanship.
Message was edited by: full_tilt at Dec 10, 2009 4:00 PM
My position is simple; I believe players should only be denied an undo when and if I realize that doing so will torment that player to the brink of losing control of him\herself. In this manner I can stretch said player beyond their sanity threshold, creating a rising cascade of emotional explosiveness that would have otherwise been impossible without the undo feature present. This was why I first suggested the undo feature to peter way back when he was programming the site.
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172
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Jan 23, 2002
From:
Forest Grove, Oregon
Age:
55 Home page
Re: Undo rule
Posted:
Dec 18, 2009, 7:54 PM
When I play OTB live with anyone we always allow undo's, you don't want to win by your opponent making a stupid mistake.....you want to win because you outplayed them.
It's no different here, rated or non in my opinion. I've always granted undo requests, I think it's the more sportsmanlike way to play.
I tend to not ask for them myself (unless like the touchpad incident mentioned above I really screwed up and laid a stone at A1 or something) just because I like to punish myself for getting click happy and not thinking things through. That's just my thing though....on the whole I think the undo feature is a good one and it should be there.
maybe an option on the table for checking (undo's allowed y/n) for those that don't like being rejected an undo....at least this way you'd know going into it that you better make good and sure that's where you want to move before clicking.
I agree with Rich to a degree though, most of the time granting those undo's already means you have the opponent second guessing everything they're doing. The chances of your opponent spiraling out of control increases with each undo granted it seems like
stepped back from playing pente for awhile, but still here.
