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Copying p2 openings in high profile tourney
Posted:
Oct 15, 2026, 3:10 PM
I had mentioned before about players copying Karl's p2 moves in the master's tourney. Not old moves, but following move for move in current motion.
Of those, namely, Noah and Owen. Although I hadn't specified names at the time.
Owen rejects the idea, and says its Karl who is copying him. I said, no, you copied karl first 3 moves vs same player, which forced karl to slow down and have you pass him, so that you dont know what he plans to do. The opening is the same opening karl used in round 3. Owen saw Karl's success, and proceeded to try the same. Owen says Karl now copies his 4th move.
But, at this stage of the opening, perhaps the 4th is dictated by common sense and locked in as inevitable.
Thats as far as im willing to discuss the games, given they are currently in motion. But, 2 things. 1, when these games are over, maybe we should discuss this. 2, if Noah wins both games, he gets 1 point towards super pente tourney 2028 entree. As that is a ugly looking P1, and if it beats 2 masters, then thats a job well done.
However if Noah copies every move of Karl in his other game, im deducting a half point for laziness.
Time will tell.
Z
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: Copying p2 openings in high profile tourney
Posted:
Oct 15, 2026, 3:23 PM
I played the line K10 N10 L7 L12 K13 against Noah in Round 3. This was the first time this opening was played since 2021.
I played N10 vs. Noah again immediately at the start of Round 4. Owen played N10 against Noah shortly after that.
At this point, I figured if Owen was going to copy my Rd 3 line, I should try to get behind him so I can get a preview if Noah deviates (he already has). Owen and Noah allowed this.
Copying the 4th move...come on lol
Now Owen has vacation days, so I'm going to have to move before him.
Also, I agree on the other game. Mumix is doing the correct thing, which is making his moves at the exact same time in both games. Well done, mumix.
There's no rules against copying openings. Just pride.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
Re: Copying p2 openings in high profile tourney
Posted:
Oct 15, 2026, 9:01 PM
Zoey,
I disagree with your emotional characterization of my play as copying Karl.
First of all, there is no rule on Pente.org forbidding copying. Whether that's good or bad, that's how it is.
Also, observers should be strictly forbidden from discussing ongoing tournament games, but I see no such rule on Pente.org.
And apparently, this is acceptable on Pente.org: yesterday, Karl published a position from our game as a "problem"; now an observer, Zoeyk, is starting a discussion about ongoing games, and Karl is replying to it. Both of you are, or have been, admins, which shocks me, of course. At the same time, the rules are silent on these matters because https://www.pente.org/help/helpWindow.jsp?file=tourneyPlayingGames covers live games only, as I was told recently.
I did choose the same opening that Karl had played in the previous round. However, choosing the same opening does not, by itself, establish that I copied his moves during the current games.
My first and second moves in this game were decided after the previous round's game. Karl made a mistake with his fourth move there, so I expected Noah to be happy to win the same way he had before, and I planned to play the correct fourth move (4. N9 M12 seems to be a clear win for P2) right after Karl played whatever move he wanted. This way, I wouldn't give Karl a chance to copy my M12.
He wasn't able to find this move in the previous game. Maybe he didn't have enough time, maybe there was some other reason, but that's the fact: he played a losing fourth move instead of a winning one. Why would I help him to find it in this game?
Then Noah played a different 4th move so my preparation didn't work as expected. And my reply with 4th was several hours before Karl's.
I am not accusing Karl of copying me, either. I assume that both of us are trying to find the strongest moves available. The fact that two players choose the same move does not establish how either of them arrived at it.
I will not discuss the positions or my analysis in detail while the games are in progress. Once they have finished, I will be happy to share my analysis and discuss the relevant moves.
---
There is a separate issue that concerns me more. This thread publicly identifies players whose games are still ongoing and attributes their moves to copying.
Whatever your intention, I think this can reasonably be perceived as putting pressure on players before their games have finished. If the purpose is to assess playing strength and select participants fairly, I believe it is better to evaluate completed games using clear and consistently applied criteria.
Until the rules and expectations are clarified, I would prefer not to see players' intentions characterized publicly on the basis of their move choices alone, or future selection points discussed on the basis of an unverified allegation.
Let's allow the games to finish and discuss the positions and the rules afterward. I think that would be fairer to everyone involved.
Finally. I'm definitely rooting for Noah in both games. I can withstand the pressure Zoeyk is creating; I hope Noah can withstand it, too, and win all his games. =)
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Re: Copying p2 openings in high profile tourney
Posted:
Oct 15, 2026, 9:05 PM
Like I said before, I consider copying opening moves to be inevitable (there's only so many unsolved openings remaining, dwindling every day) and objectively only mildly bothersome. I've erred by letting myself get mad over copying in the past, but ultimately it's just a game. And we all do it, to some extent.
And I did of course have M12 planned as a response as well; I learned my lesson. Don't know what I was thinking with P10. Huge blunder, very stupid of me
The competition of a major tournament is definitely getting to our heads. I'm going on a nice weeklong vacation starting tomorrow, and I'm going to focus on just having fun (while trying not to time out). No more bitterness or sass.
And I agree that we shouldn't discuss rated games in progress, in any way, shape or form. That's a more serious issue and it affects the integrity of the game.
As Zoey said: "The game is of Karl's p2 line. Key word 'P2.' So if he wants to discuss his creation, that's his choice, as long as the game is done, or his defeat is obvious."
The defeat was obvious, and I resigned.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: Copying p2 openings in high profile tourney
Posted:
Oct 15, 2026, 9:37 PM
Emotional characterization????? Does not seem to fit to what I wrote to he honest.
Doesnt break the rules of the site? Duhhh i never said it did. But its a bad look for a master. And I've never seen it before in 20 years. And it certainly doesnt help ones case for getting selected to be in an elite tourney of top 6 players down the line. Also doesnt match up to all of your boasting. I expected a certain performance. Perhaps my expectations were too high.
As to discussing games in progress, our rules are less strict then where you hail from. Essentially, do not talk about a game in progress in a manner that could alter the rest of the game. This is simply common sense. Talking about a past move in general without stating any opinion of its strength or direction is ok. Talking about alternate paths from earlier in the game, which are no longer available, are a grey area. Because they can lead to inspiration and perhaos alter. So... in that sense I agree with karl. but i did not say anything which could alter the games in progress. Im a careful person.
Now, as to you and karls game. That game was over. Therefore karl can choose to discuss his p2 of that game. I hate to be the barer of bad news, but you do not dictate the rules of our community. We have our conventional habitus etiquette, stemming from long before your arrival. But im always open ears to any members opinions, thoughts, feelings, and concerns. So I thank you for sharing that. And like all member's shares, it will be thoughtfully considered. And im also open to evolutions, if its the majorities will to do so. Im open minded and flexible. But as of currently, karl has done nothing to upset the norm, as far as I can see it.
Thank you for expressing your perspective that karl made error in your eyes, and you felt you could improve upon it. It does slightly make your copy catting look a tad less bad. But, it still shows you struggled to find your own inspiration and unique idea as a whole. So, somewhat underwhelming. But, its round 4, I get it. Some players simply ran out of material and got mental fatigue. It happens. But it is a measure of resilience. Or lack thereof. A factor in grading a master. Which nosovs did grade me on once.
So there is that....
Anything else you wish to add?
Karl enjoy your vacation.
Z
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: Copying p2 openings in high profile tourney
Posted:
Oct 15, 2026, 10:30 PM
Zoey, I've tried to be as polite as possible, but I need to address several false statements in your posts in this thread.
1. > The opening is the same opening karl used in round 3. Owen saw Karl's success, and proceeded to try the same.
This is false. Karl lost that game. How can that be described as success? I saw mistakes made by both Karl and Noah. That is what informed my decision to play the opening, not some supposed success by Karl.
2. > Owen says Karl now copies his 4th move.
This is a lie. I have never accused Karl of copying my fourth move. Please re-read my messages and stop attributing statements to me that I did not make. I've been keeping copies of my messages to you for some time because this is not the first time I have felt that you've misrepresented what I wrote. I would prefer not to publish private messages, but since you have publicly attributed a statement to me that contradicts what I actually wrote, I feel compelled to show the relevant passage. Here is the exact quote:
> 4th move was made by me BEFORE it was made by karl, check it since you have an access to db as an admin. > and 3rd move was made by karl before me, happens. [censored] > I will tell you one thing. You can't win a tournament copying somebody you consider to be stronger because you will not overcome the guy you consider stronger. That's why I'm sure Karl isn't copying my moves (even my hard-worked 4th move) and that's why I never copy moves and never rely on DB variants, I play by my own analyses and take your writing about me copying anything as a personal insult. That's it. > so please stop writing false statements. have a nice day.
Anyone reading this can compare what I actually wrote in private with what you have publicly attributed to me.
3.
> Now, as to you and karls game. That game was over.
This is incorrect. I will not call it a lie, because it is possible that you saw the game after it had ended. However, when Karl posted his message, and even several hours after I replied, the game was still in progress. Karl resigned only a little later. He can confirm this if necessary.
4.
> It does slightly make your copy catting look a tad less bad.
I have told you twice that I consider this an insult. You know why I chose those moves. You know that my plan depended on the previous round. You are an observer and all you do is just disrupting me and Noah. Nevertheless, you continue to describe our play as copying.
I find this particularly disappointing from someone who is, or has been, an administrator.
I also remind you that in the past you've edited your messages several times after I pointed out statements that were wrong.
Please stop publicly misrepresenting my words and characterizing my moves in this way. If you disagree with my explanation, address the actual facts rather than attributing statements to me that I did not make.
I believe you owe me an apology, and I expect you to correct the record.
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Re: Copying p2 openings in high profile tourney
Posted:
Oct 15, 2026, 10:47 PM
I can confirm that I didn't resign until the morning after I posted the puzzle. Another one of my many blunders.
Granted, I rushed to post it partly due to being inflamed by yet another extremely condescending post and the game was deader than my great-grandmother at the time of posting, but that gives no reason for me not to resign first. It won't happen again, and I apologize.
This will be my last forum post before my vacation, and I don't plan on engaging in the forum after returning, unless it is to answer a specific question (or accusation, but let's pray we're done with those).
I think we should all take a break and sort things out in private messages.
Owen, the last thing I'll say directly to you publicly is this: don't expect apologies from people if you consistently refuse to give them yourself.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: Copying p2 openings in high profile tourney
Posted:
Oct 15, 2026, 11:47 PM
ok Owen, i will go though this one by one by one investigate and apologize for any errors i have made.
1. you are correct. I made a gross oversight. round 3 karl in fact lost that game. which astonishes me that i did not catch that. when i viewed the game, i said to my self, yup karls winning that. and i did not look again. then the game vanished, by ending, and i never thought to look at that. I amazed I missed that, amazed karl lost that. And I apologize about that error.
2. you had written in private message stuff like copy n paste: "And he copied my 4th and will copy my 5th" and "4th move was made by me BEFORE it was made by karl, check it since you have an access to db as an admin. and 3rd move was made by karl before me"
now, Owen, admittedly i speed skim read your posts. and misread them. as i read more i see there are other statements you made which made the context mean that karl was not copying you. so, thats on me for not reading every word more carefully. in my defense. every day, i receive many long messages from you. and i havnt time to read them all. its a barrage of message over load in my mail box. and its over whelming for me, stressful, and im quite busy. so i generally speed read and skim read. and because of your unique writing style, in order to not misunderstand you, im realizing im forced to actually read every word of it... and i simply dont currently have that kind of time. but any ways, so i hereby apologize ....
3. karl said it was over, posted and resigned. his post had zero effect on your moves, because he resigned instead of allowing you to move. he had already determined it was done. so i see zero issue in him posting. on that one, you are just whining to whine in my opinion. karl should not had apologized on that one, but anyways.
4. nope. im standing by what i said. that was karls line for this tourney. and you used it. regardless of if you were perfecting it or what ever. you come across like you are the best player on the site, here to show us how easy and dead pente is, Mr brilliant Renju Referee. if so much better than us, then come up with your own P2 line in round 4. there are so many to choose from. if so good show us a new line. youre piggy backing off karls efforts, while trying to prove you are better than him. not impressive. sorry not sorry. I expected better after your boasting. If I and karl had not done that particular P2 during tourney, you would not had even known to look at it or find it. you just stare around the room waiting for others games to inspire you. you are better than that right? ok then do better. impress us. or stop acting like you are a pente God hovering over us simpletons.
yeah im taking a break too. Owen, take a break and focus on your games and your studies. you got a nice hand full of apologies. now go be your amazing self and leave me alone bud. if you message me in Private messages, make it SHORT.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
