Home » Forum Home » General

Topic: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Replies: 19   Views: 7,119   Pages: 2   Last Post: Feb 23, 2021, 7:11 AM by: gentry_j

Search Forum

Back to Topic List Topics: [ Previous | Next ]
Replies: 19   Views: 7,119   Pages: 2   [ 1 2 | Next ]
watsu

Posts: 1,082
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 6, 2021, 6:29 PM

Generally speaking probably not, but...
How about if an experienced expert level player is lying about the rules of the game in order to prevent a novice player from beating them and taking away some of their rating points? What do you think?

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney


watsu

Posts: 1,082
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 6, 2021, 6:38 PM

Hint: someone might want to edit the wikipedia rules for Pente to indicate that more than five in a row also wins the game, unlike in gomoku (unless one plays "Pente" on the seashell site, anyway).

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
t0afer

Posts: 25
Registered: Jan 7, 2021
Age: 28
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 7, 2021, 10:19 PM

I think that would be the role of a referee, and in lieu of having one, the spectators become makeshift referees.

In that sense its not table talk, but stopping cheating from going on.

Otherwise I think table talk would be distracting.

Imagine trying to play and then just getting a ?Ooh that was a mistake? in the background.

Mistake or not now you?re distracted thinking about it.

watsu

Posts: 1,082
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 7, 2021, 10:35 PM

I think that makes sense; and it was the response I had in the situation. To be fair, it's possible the more experienced player may not always be aware of that rule in Pente if they start playing gomoku and just assume that the same rule applies for Pente. Especially as the wikipedia entry for Pente is currently worded.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
t0afer

Posts: 25
Registered: Jan 7, 2021
Age: 28
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 7, 2021, 10:42 PM

I wonder if they copy-pasted gomoku rules and then added capture, but forgot about overlines?

And the wikipedia page in general could use a detailed make-over. It serves its purpose but is fairly light on info.

The rules could be organized better and a strategy section added. The history could be expanded too but that would probably be harder to research and find than most pente players would be willing to go out and do.

watsu

Posts: 1,082
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 7, 2021, 11:25 PM

It's odd, because wikipedia links to the rules here, but omits that particular part of the rules. A decade or so ago, there used to be details on variants and possibly some strategy included but it got edited out quite awhile back.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
t0afer

Posts: 25
Registered: Jan 7, 2021
Age: 28
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 8, 2021, 12:33 AM

Oh really? I wonder why? Was the excuse non-notability or poor citation? Or was it a rogue editor that removed allowable content I wonder.

Smaller pages can get the short end of the stick like that when no one?s watching.

Kinda curious. Want to go look over the edit history and see why.

t0afer

Posts: 25
Registered: Jan 7, 2021
Age: 28
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 8, 2021, 12:43 AM

Looked through the edit and some guy named Walter G?rlitz left only ?unsupported variants? as the reason. I don?t know if meant that there weren?t any citations, which I don?t think I saw in his defense, or if he meant that its unsupported by Winning moves games which is a contestable claim.

As far as I know Pente?s name and opening rules are copyrighted, but Keryo Pente and Pente.org have never been contested by them or treated as illicit.

It would probably be worth it trying to edit those back in with citations.

watsu

Posts: 1,082
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 8, 2021, 3:26 AM

Keryo was proposed in the Spring '84 newsletter, but unfortunately I don't know of an online source for that one. However, the summer '84 newsletter https://renju.se/rif/pente/s84pen10.gif gives the basic rules (though without the overlines also win rule).

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
t0afer

Posts: 25
Registered: Jan 7, 2021
Age: 28
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 8, 2021, 10:12 PM

I updated the wiki page to include Keryo with citations and the updated the rules section to make sure it reads ?five or more...? for both win conditions

But yeah overall when someone is cheating people should speak up. If both players are unclear on the perfect 5 rule from gomoku not existing pente then maybe they should be told after the match rather than during in case the info screws up both of their strategies.

watsu

Posts: 1,082
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 8, 2021, 10:55 PM

Thanks for those edits, looks great!

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
t0afer

Posts: 25
Registered: Jan 7, 2021
Age: 28
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 9, 2021, 7:44 PM

I'm going to try and collect some basic concepts and tactics and write them into a strategy section for the page as well.

It's a travesty that the Gomoku and Pente pages are as limited as they are considering how old and well tread the former is and how big and relatively long lived the latter is.

I can guarantee you that many of the current hot and trending abstracts today won't have as much traction and support as pente does in the same time scale as pente had.

Especially since Pente didn't start with the benefit of internet communities to grow it.

watsu

Posts: 1,082
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 9, 2021, 8:34 PM

I definitely approve of any efforts to increase the amount of information on the wikipedia page. I think it may involve finding a fine line between authoritative/notable sources (such as Braunlich's books, or nosov's writings on Pente for example) and not violating copyright.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

Posts: 1,082
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 12:34 AM

I like what you've done to improve the wikipedia page; much more detailed than it's been in several years! 👍

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
t0afer

Posts: 25
Registered: Jan 7, 2021
Age: 28
Re: Is table talk about a rated game by spectators ever acceptable?
Posted: Feb 18, 2021, 2:03 PM

I mostly just pulled info from archived sites and from the online pente newsletters. I think the only thing really missing "meat" is the history section, especially on the USPA and its foundation and demise, but its certainly an improvement.

I think it might be more detailed than gomoku now XD

Replies: 19   Views: 7,119   Pages: 2   [ 1 2 | Next ]
Back to Topic List
Topics: [ Previous | Next ]


Powered by Jive Software