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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 16, 2005, 3:50 PM
Well, since its on the forums now, here we go.
Yesterday night I played nosovs in a match, he crushed me However, when we first started playing I saw him accessing the database in the log files, searching for the position of our game before his next move. To me, that's cheating. I don't know what else you could call it. Look, he probably didn't need the help (and he played a new excellent line not in the db), but it's still cheating.
So, I blocked his IP from accessing the database.
I see a number of players doing this from time to time, and its NOT ok. I am seriously considering banning all access from the db when you are playing in the game room. Maybe only if you are playing in a rated game. If you are playing an unrated game, I could see how you and a friend are just trying out positions and talking back and forth, and using the db to help, that is fine with me.
I understand the temptation to use the db, but don't do it! Use the db before and after your games, and use your brain during the game.
I hope everyone understands my position on this, I will allow access to nosovs again, consider this a warning.
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 16, 2005, 4:10 PM
I don't think that it is good opinion which Dweebo wrote. It is Internet games (not face to face games), so using bases is correct. If you want to block your database, I can use Stepanov database, just add some important games from your base or from brainking site. I think that situation when owner of this site can block his opponent from database during the games against him is not correct. I have no information - does you use database or not ! and can not check it. It is just your word that you are not using it, but it is not normal that you can block your opponent possibility to search opening during games against you. How I can trust you , if you control my actions during our games ? (I can not see what are you doing during the game). I think it is OK, if you and your opponent both have possibility to check database during the game. In this case you just know that there is such possibility, but is it useful or not is choice of player not owner of DSG. Really you can not knew something new from database, but you can check moves and play more quality game. If all players will use database for playing oppenning it will be useful for their improvements and give us more interesting games at DSG and in database. Alexander
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 16, 2005, 4:31 PM
You are correct, you don't know what I'm doing. There is really no way around that, you have to trust me. If you don't think you can trust me, then don't play me, I guess I have to live with that. I will state now that I did not cheat during our games and I have never cheated during ANY games at DSG.
Obviously different people have different opinions about what should be allowed during a game. So I'll state it here, DSG's official policy for playing rated games is that you don't get help from any outside source, be it moving stones around on a board at home, in a different pente program, using the DSG db, Stepanov's db, books or notes, same as the rules for tournament play. There is no way to enforce most of those, however the DSG db is under my control, so I will restrict access as I see fit. This is only the 2nd time I have ever done so.
If you and an opponent want to use outside sources during rated games, thats your choice, but you should discuss that BEFORE starting a game.
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 16, 2005, 5:40 PM
Finishing our discussion , I have to say that you had played rather good in our games. One your move in our first game was really strong, may be I need to play stronger before it. I like it, thank you for good game. About discussion : Will you cut my IP for not searching during the game or not anycase 300 points of rating is too much difference in strength. Using database is not the reason why you had lost our games and you just need live with that... Alexander
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 16, 2005, 6:03 PM
> Finishing our discussion , I have to say that you had > played rather good in our games. One your move in our > first game was really strong, may be I need to play > stronger before it. > I like it, thank you for good game.
Thank you, after reviewing it I could have played much better, next time I'll know how to handle that line Second game was a disaster but oh well.
> About discussion : > Will you cut my IP for not searching during the game > or not anycase 300 points of rating is too much > difference in strength. Using database is not the > reason why you had lost our games and you just need > live with that...
You should have access to the db again, I wrote that in the first post. I never claimed I lost because you used the database, that is not the point!
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Jan 21, 2002
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ohio
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 17, 2005, 6:19 AM
before or after is fine but not during a match!! that is akin to ising a computer secretly at a chess tourney. seems to lean toward cheating to me. and i'm sure u don"t need it.
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May 9, 2002
From:
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 17, 2005, 6:42 AM
I'd like to make a few points:
Long story short -- Dweebo, if it is DSG policy to not allow outside sources during rated games, I think it's time for you to disable the database while seated at a rated game. It's inconvenient, but it's a solution that would solve this specific problem.
It is clear from this discussion that some players truely consider using their resources, including the "Games History", just part of the game. I don't think nosovs meant any harm -- it sounds like he doesn't agree that it is cheating at all to use a database, and wouldn't mind if his opponents used it -- he thinks it's part of the game.
We have had this discussion before, but it is not actually clear that this is against DSG policy. Where is the policy??
This policy should be spelled out in big letters either on the main page, or in the lobby chat window, or both. We should probably also agree to it upon creating an account.
However, an easy fix is to just not make it available if that is the rule here.
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 17, 2005, 11:42 AM
Yes, it will be better for all players if using dataase will be part of the game. Some players will analise their openning strategy and will play stronger. If you compeare IYT, Brainking, and other SERVERS you can use database for tactick. Really you can not get any advantage if you will try to learn something during your time 20 minutes. I agree with up2ng that if it will be impossible to use database during the rated game it will e Rule. But better to have possibility to use it, otherwise why you need to learn opening variants playing for fun. We play just for fun, no real competition, real prizes, why players need to learn this variants ? Internet playing is such game which you can use all your possibilities. Those players who want to play in real life have to learn information, but I don't want. I play pente for fun. There are a lot of seriouse games like Shogi, Renju which you need to study, because there are some prizes, some seriouse Tournaments.
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 17, 2005, 2:51 PM
Yes I completely agree with up2ng.
There is no DSG policy that I can point to, so I can't be too harsh with anyone. I tried not to be too hard on nosovs, I only brought this all out into the open because he started this thread.
I will be adding the policy to DSG somewhere soon (I know this is something up2ng, dmitriking and others have wanted for some time). Sometime in the future I will also probably disable access to the db during rated games.
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Aug 15, 2003
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Krakow / Poland Home page
Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 17, 2005, 4:22 PM
Nosovs wrote:
"Yes, it will be better for all players if using dataase will be part of the game. "
so.. maybe we should use programs too?
"Some players will analise their openning strategy and will play stronger."
there is much time before or after each game to analise the strategy.
"If you compeare IYT, Brainking, and other SERVERS you can use database for tactick. "
i think it is big difference between dsg (or kurnik) and brainking, iyt . in real time games (dsg, kurnik) you usually dont have enough time to play the best way or analise all variants. it is part of such speed games and any help that let you play "perfect" moves or analise whole game are, for me, just cheating, that gives you too big advantage over opponent. on brainking, iyt, there so much time for move that everyone can analise possible variants for himself and play the best way.
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 17, 2005, 6:03 PM
Link is about Tournament Rules It was not the Tournament game. I don't plan to participate any Tournaments at DSG, or Kurnick. I don't consider rating game or not as important part of the game. I have no satisfaction if my oponent just lose in the openning. I am not interesting win against weak players . More over it is more interesting to win when your opponent have possibility to use database, a lot of time for analizing, and he make best moves and lost anyway. It is just my understanding of the game. I guess some players like another style (win because your opponent just mistakes or have no time to find good move).
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Re: I can not use Search at History Games
Posted:
Mar 17, 2005, 6:19 PM
I have good suggestion Dwebo can easyly add small window below board near Time , Ranking and other, use database or not. So, players can decide before the game would they like to play this way or not. Alexander
