A delayed move feature?
Posted:
May 22, 2003, 8:41 AM
I was thinking it might be helpful to be able to choose to play games with a timed delay option if a player wanted to see what the board looked like from the new position without needing to request an undo if s/he did not like the position. The time would still come off of his/her time in a game which was timed, but the move would not appear to the opponent until the time ran out on the delay or the move was confirmed by the player.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
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Re: A delayed move feature?
Posted:
May 22, 2003, 3:03 PM
I think many players would consider that "feature" cheating. I believe you need to be able to think ahead in your mind to see what the position will be. That is part of the game!
Now of course any player can setup the same game position on a board while they are playing and accomplish what you're talking about....but I have no way of stopping that. However, I will not encourage it by implementing this feature.
Re: A delayed move feature?
Posted:
May 22, 2003, 3:26 PM
The feature suggested by Watsu isn't really necessary, because we can "dangle" the piece over the board without actually placing it.
Dweebo, I have a question about your remark about setting up a board. Is that actually forbidden by a specific rule anywhere on the site? I have always assumed so, but I do not remember seeing it anywhere specifically stated. If it isn't, perhaps it should be-- otherwise people might assume it to be a legitimate meansd of analyzing a position (and it sounds as if you do NOT consider that to be the case).
If I do not accept a game invite right away, it means I will once I have fewer games in progress.
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Re: A delayed move feature?
Posted:
May 22, 2003, 3:43 PM
Yes dangling works, except for the case of having captures removed.
I have not published a rule list on this site forbidding things like setting up a board, etc...Not because I believe those things are OK, but because I feel I can't really control it. Those rules ARE covered in the tournament rules created by the tournament directors.
Perhaps there needs to be a section in the help files with suggestions for fair play. I'm sure you'd be interested in drafting some things for that dmitri
Re: A delayed move feature?
Posted:
May 22, 2003, 10:39 PM
THat might be a good suggestion Dweebo-- but there are one or two drawbacks.
One is that some people think I am pedantic and overbearing when it comes to my views on fair play and sportsmanship and etiquette.
Another is that if I post or help post a section on fair play, there will really only be a few people who it would apply to -- those who do questionable acts. And those people could and would simply reject what I say on the grounds that what I say doesn't matter as long as they follow the official rules of your site.
A certain individual did in fact sayu just that-- he said that I had no authority to say what is sportsmanlike and fair and what isn't, and since he was "following the posted rules" he was doing nothing wrong.
I do agree with you that you cnanot control the actions we have discussed, and that neither you nor anyone else can do anything to prevent people from doing them.
BUT-- the people who have a strict adherance to "the pusblished and official rules of the site" are likely to follow along because they only do questionable actions if they are not in violation of any specific rule.
If I do not accept a game invite right away, it means I will once I have fewer games in progress.
Delay moves are part of most turn based games, which I'd like to play here
Posted:
May 24, 2003, 9:42 AM
Turn based games are really the feature I'd like to see, and actually both IYT and Brainking have this feature (not sure if IYT disables this in tournament play, if not, then the database is contaminated with "cheating" games). Why a turn based option? At least some of us play better games in that format, so the overall quality of games in the database would improve, plus we would be able to play against players of similar strength more easily, since both players wouldn't need to be online at the same time. As for the cheating aspects, two comments: 1. OTB purists would say that 99% of all pente games are contaminated with a cheating feature; the computer automatically removes any captured stones- if a player doesn't see a capture in OTB play the stones remain in place. 2. While having a board beside the computer might be considered not fair play or cheating, there are surely better ways to go than that- think 3 fast computers and an alias at this site and only playing untimed games! Which is why if there is ever any money to be made at this game it will only happen in OTB settings (unless someone is extremely gullible) P.S.- turn based would probably be best as a separate game (like keryo for example).
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Re: Delay moves are part of most turn based games, which I'd like to play here
Posted:
May 24, 2003, 10:30 AM
Watsu, I can honestly say I have NO idea what you are talking about. You said:
Turn based games are really the feature I'd like to see, and actually both IYT and Brainking have this feature (not sure if IYT disables this in tournament play, if not, then the database is contaminated with "cheating" games).
as you noted, IYT and Brain King have turn based pente, so what is it that you are asking for?? I don't underastand this at all. Then you say "not sure if IYT disables this in tournamnet play..." Disables WHAT? I do not know hwat you are referring to.
As for the databse being contaminated with 99% cheated games, this is utter nonsense, one of the most asinine and ludicrous statements I have ever heard (I had to work my two favorite words in there somewhere!"
For starters, leaving stones on the board is NOT an option in pente! If you TAKE a capture, you HAVE to remove the stones! so that the computer does this is NOT cheating! MANY times I have been forced to TAKE a capture, such that if I could just play the stone WITOUT removing the stones, I would be in better shape (because by removing the opponent's stones, he then recaptures for a winning capture).
Overall, I am not sure what your point is at all. YOU close by saying "turn based would be best as a separate game." HUH??????????
If I do not accept a game invite right away, it means I will once I have fewer games in progress.
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Re: Delay moves are part of most turn based games, which I'd like to play here
Posted:
May 24, 2003, 5:46 PM
I have a question unrelated to this topic. Watsu's last post was actually posted something like 10 times. I've noticed dmitri had the same thing happen a few posts again, the message was repeated 3 times. Can anyone explain what exactly they are doing that might be causing this? I'm sorry to everyone who is "watching" this topic because you probably got 10 emails with the same post.
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Re: Delay moves are part of most turn based games, which I'd like to play here
Posted:
May 24, 2003, 6:03 PM
Nevermind, I think I figured out the problem. I'm guessing you both were getting "A General Error Occurred" after replying. Then you were probably clicking back and trying to post again. However, when you got the "General Error Occurred" the message was being posted each time.
I just found the fix for the problem from jive software, I will be implementing it today sometime.
Re: Delay moves are part of most turn based games, which I'd like to play here
Posted:
May 24, 2003, 7:47 PM
Correct, we were getting a general error. BUt I quickly figured out that this ewas the problem, so I just saved my post in a text format and didn't repost, figuring it would show up anyway, despite the error.
If I do not accept a game invite right away, it means I will once I have fewer games in progress.
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Re: Delay moves are part of most turn based games, which I'd like to play here
Posted:
May 24, 2003, 7:50 PM
Well here I go again, just asking to be shut down on the forums. Dmitri, I would like to put out what I think Watsu may have been trying to say.
(Delay moves are part of most turn based games) Watsu:Turn based games are really the feature I'd like to see, and actually both IYT and Brainking have this feature (not sure if IYT disables this in tournament play, if not, then the database is contaminated with "cheating" games).
Watsu, IYT does not disable this feature in tournament play.
I believe he is referring to being able to make your move, review the move, but not yet submit the move (Delay moves). If you don't like the move after you have made it, then you can simply click cancel move or click back on your browser. There for, if this action is considered cheating, then 99%(Watsu's #) of the IYT games in the game history should be marked as games played using a "cheating" method. (Quote: Dweebo;I think many players would consider that "feature" cheating. I believe you need to be able to think ahead in your mind to see what the position will be. That is part of the game!)
I personally do not care to have this option implemented here at DSG. I believe that hovering your stone is every bit as effective.
What I don't understand completely, is why people think it is ok to use another board, either real or a computer program like MM's, to play out moves, in search of the best possible move, is ok at turn based sites, but not ok here at DSG. What is the difference? IF it's cheating here, why is it not cheating at BK and IYT? I just don't understand.
Re: Delay moves are part of most turn based games, which I'd like to play here
Posted:
May 25, 2003, 5:42 AM
V--
"What I don't understand completely, is why people think it is ok to use another board, either real or a computer program like MM's, to play out moves, in search of the best possible move, is ok at turn based sites, but not ok here at DSG. What is the difference? IF it's cheating here, why is it not cheating at BK and IYT? I just don't understand. "
I'll give my take on this. Turn based games are analysis games. IYT and BRain King and PBeM games are weeks-long games geared towards those who like to play analysis games.
Dweebo's games are real time, intended to stimulate playing over a board against someone.
That isnl;t a great explanation, maybe someone will do a better job.
Regarding what you said about Watsu-- we'll need Watsu to clarify, because I do NOT htink that is what he was saying. It sounded to me like he was saying that all of Dweebo;'s games are "cheat" games because the computer automatically removes captuwed stones, instead iof forcing the capturing player to "notice" it and remove them.
BUt, as far as I understand it, leaving captured stones on the board is NOT an option. So I should not be able to "forget" to remove my opponent's stones in the hope that he also doesnlt see it, therefore avoiding a bad siutation for me.
If I do not accept a game invite right away, it means I will once I have fewer games in progress.
Re: A delayed move feature?
Posted:
May 25, 2003, 9:28 AM
Ok, clarification- the feature I was referring to was the delay move as Vitals suggested. Vital's comment that the "take back the move or cancel move" feature isn't disabled in tournament play was what I was referring to with the comment that many games in DSG's database have been played with this feature which Dweebo says many players would consider "cheating" However, the quote about 99% of games being cheating was not referring to that, and was taken out of context; I was giving an example of a feature which exists in computer play but does not exist in OTB play. It is my understanding that if a player does not see that a move results in a capture, his opponent has no obligation to point that out. If it is to the opponent's advantage for those stones to remain on the board s/he may simply continue play. If it is not to the opponent's advantage to let the stones remain on the board, of course s/he can require that they be taken. It's a stupid point; all I was trying to suggest was that people who only play OTB ("purists")might have an objection to computer games being "impure" or somehow "cheating" because the computer automatically takes the capture. As for why I was suggesting that turn based games be kept apart from the regular games here, that is because players have different abilities at turn based vs. timed games, and so the rankings would be affected if they were all lumped together under pente- also some players might have no interest in searching games of one or the other kind, so if it is set up separately (like keryo), they can just search for the type of game which interests them at that moment. Hope that makes more sense now.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
