Posts:
54
Registered:
Apr 3, 2005
From:
NY
Age:
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Undo until death?
Posted:
Dec 9, 2005, 2:57 AM
I am sure any pente has come across this situation at one point or another in their gameplay: You are at the end of the game and your opponent makes a move, instantly you see that you have the win a couple moves down the road...then they realize what they have done so they hit undo! You can also tell that if they make another move which will most certainly result in a win. Your now presented with a question: To undo or not to undo, to win or not to win? <----That is the question. I wanna hear what you guys and gals have to say about this conundrum. Happy thinking!
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: Undo until death?
Posted:
Dec 11, 2005, 12:12 AM
awakening, this is a great question and a topic that has not been talked about on these forums for years!
I'm sure everyone has different opinions about this specific situation and about Undos in general and it will be interesting to hear them. When it comes to undos, there are the rules, then there is common sense ettiquette, then there are individual personal policies and there are also many different scenarios, such as the one you've described.
Here are my current opinions about undos, subject to change:
First of all, and more important than anything else, there are rules and they are very simple. It is ALWAYS acceptable to ask for an undo. And it is ALWAYS acceptable to deny them! Most players here are not going to like reading that, but the fact is, those are the rules. In fact, these rules are spelled out clearly in just about every tournament that has been run here at DSG. Hey, if this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be an Undo button would there?
Now that that's out of the way, there are some common sense principles of ettiquette that everyone at DSG should be aware of. To sum it up, don't abuse the use of undos in any way that could be perceived by your opponent to be unfair. Nobody likes to feel cheated, and that's exactly the risk you run when abusing undos -- your opponents will generally dislike you for it and they may decide not to play with you any more and even spread the news about what you've done so that you get a generally bad reputation, making it more and more difficult to find someone who will play a game with you.
Here are some examples of abusing the undo: -- Asking for an undo more than once on a single move -- Asking for an undo verbally after your opponent has already made his next move -- Asking for an undo over and over again throughout the game -- Asking for an undo, having it granted by your opponent, then later on in the same game, denying your opponent's request for an undo
Those were pretty clear cut, but there are also more subtle actions that might be perceived as abuse: -- I think the situation described by awakening is an example of undo abuse. Specifically, making an intentional move that has some logic to it (is not a mouse slip or a complete blunder such as forgetting to block an open 4), then realizing that move just cost you a game that you could have won and asking for an undo. Not everyone is going to agree with me that it is undo abuse and it may depend on the situation, but my personal opinion is that people should avoid asking for an undo in this situation. But, I don't get upset when someone does, because again, not everyone feels the way I do about this situation. They may not mean anything wrong by it, they may just be used to asking for undos in situations like that. -- On the opposite end of the spectrum, NOT granting an undo in an obvious blunder situation will often make you look like a bad sport. I remember a long time ago, dmitriking posted a rant and was absolutely livid because he had made an unstoppable 3x3 in a game. His opponent took forever looking at the board, causing dmitri to lose focus out of boredom, wondering why the player was not resigning. Then the player made a meaningless extention to make a 4, blocked on one side. Dmitri heard the sound of a stone being dropped, came back to the game and made an open 4, then immediately asked for an undo after realizing what his opponent had done. The undo was denied and the player made his 5-in-a-row, stealing the game from Dmitri. Again, not everyone will agree with me, but Dmitri was absolutely correct that the player lacked basic ettiquette and should have just resigned the game. However, he was not correct to get as angry about it as he did, because, as I have started out by saying, the rules of the game take priority over everything else -- what the player did was legal, it just wasn't particularly ethical. Don't be that guy. Resign the game when you are clearly beat. -- There are other specific scenarios that can come up in pente involving the undo, which some will agree to call it undo abuse, and others would disagree. I hope to see more examples posted here along with your opinions of them.
Finally, I will go over my personal policies here and give you some ideas about how you might want to define your own personal policies, how to deal with these situations when they come up, and how to avoid these situations in the first place:
I personally have decided to never ask for an undo again. There are several reasons for this. First, it makes it more challenging to myself and forces me to really focus my mind on what I'm doing and to teach myself to be really sure of my move before I make it. Some of you may believe that I am a slow player. That is open to interpretation. I happen to think that I am not a slow player -- I just use the time allowed by the timer wisely. I can play 1/0 pente with the best of them. The point is that probably at least half of my time is spent making sure of a move that I've already decided to make. This reduces the chances that my move turns out to be a blunder and reduces the likelihood that I will want to request an undo. Another reason is that undos are considered pretty much unacceptable in tournament play, and it is good preparation to get used to that. Also, as sort of a purist of the game, I believe in real time play the way it was meant to be played -- with the absense of undos. I don't knock anyone else for using them, I have just personally decided against using them -- even if it costs me a game. As an example, at the recent 2004 OTB championships played in Las Vegas, I was playing an elimination match where I had set up a keystone attack and placed a move that threatened the keystone capture. The problem was, I forgot to extend my 3 to a 4 first. Thus, my opponent could simply ignore the keystone attack and make an open 4 to win the game. Immediately after playing my move, I had realized what I'd done. My opponent knew this and graciously asked me to undo my move because they "didn't want to win like that". In response, I promptly resigned the game, resulting in a draw for the set.
Of course, there are rare times when I am compelled to ask for an undo against my own policy. Every time I do so, I regret it. However, I have a backup policy for when I do ask for an undo. I immediately tell my opponent that if I go on to win the game, I will request for a cancelled game. Then I will go on to play the 2nd half of the set or if that was the 2nd half, I will consider it complete. When you think about it, this is like a half-penalty in terms of ratings. If you play a set and get a win and a no decision, you end up with less points than if you get 2 wins. But more points than a win and a loss. Personally, if I have to ask for an undo, I do not deserve to win the game. It's kind of like playing golf. You keep your own score. Are you really a 10 handicap or are you a 10 handicap with 3 mulligans, preferred lies, gimmes and alternate out-of-bounds rules? You are only lying to yourself, so why not take your medicine and live with the true outcome and use that to try to improve your game.
As for granting undos, this is mostly based on my mood. I do not grant undos every time, but I will grant undos most of the time, even when it will cost me the game. Fortunately, this does not happen to me very often. This is because, in general, beginner and intermediate players ask for undos far more often than advanced players. I happen to be at a level where I will usually win the game anyway even if I grant an undo, and players that give me a really hard time generally do not ask for undos anyway. But for most players, this can become a real problem because you feel like granting an undo is costing you games that you deserve to win.
So, here are some suggestions for you:
-- Never expect your undo requests to be granted. You are not entitled to an undo simply by asking for one. If you understand this, you will have less hard feelings about being denied and will improve your game by making sure you don't have to ask for them as often. By the way, if you use the "hover" feature to take a look at what the position will look like if you place your stone in a certain spot, BEWARE! You might accidentally click your mouse and place your move before you intend to. Even though this is a mouse slip, it is not an OBVIOUS mouse slip and your opponent might deny an undo request. -- Always grant undos when it is an obvious mouse slip or an obvious blunder, such as forgetting to block an open 4. In fact, in the original rules of pente that were printed with the retail game sets in the 80s, I'm pretty sure you were required to say the word "tessera" when making a 4, alerting your opponent that it must be blocked. Likewise, when making an open 3, you are supposed to say "tria". So don't be the guy that takes the game when your opponent missed an open 4. Tell him he should request an undo and block the 4. -- It is ALWAYS a good idea to discuss your personal undo policy with your opponent BEFORE the match starts. Simply saying something like "I do not ask for undos and I do not grant undo requests, is that acceptable to you?" (if that is your policy) will really lessen the hard feelings when the situation arises. -- It is also a good idea to post your personal undo policy in the Notes area of your profile. Check your opponent's profile for this information and if it is not there, don't be afraid to ask your opponent what his undo policy is BEFORE the match begins. -- Stick to your undo policy. One thing worse than feeling cheated is feeling betrayed AND cheated! Don't be that guy. You will regret it. -- As a rule of thumb, do not ask for and do not accept requests for undos made after the opponent has already played his next move. (But in obvious blunder situations, do not play your next move too quickly. Wait a good 15 seconds or so to give your opponent a chance to realize your mistake and ask for an undo, or simply tell your opponent that they have made a blunder and to ask for an undo). -- If you know a player has broken their personal undo policy or if you are unhappy with their undo policy, consider not playing with that player at all. Play at your own risk and do not complain when something happens that you do not like when it could be predicted and avoided. -- Do not abuse the undo feature (see above). Politely tell your opponent when you feel that he is abusing the undo feature. Do not be afraid to deny an undo in this situation. If you deny an undo, politely explain to your opponent that this is the reason (or whatever the reason is). -- In borderline situations, use your best judgement. Err on the side of good sportsmanship. -- Remember, it's only a game! Have some fun!
Posts:
55
Registered:
Jan 21, 2002
From:
ohio
Age:
65
Re: Undo until death?
Posted:
Dec 13, 2005, 7:28 AM
personally i always give undos my brother, however, never gives undos. to each his own. i disagree with the point about asking after opp has moved. i move quickly after opp has moved and many times am immediately asked for an undo. i'll give it of course. UP2NG is a very slow player and i usually fall asleep during our games.lol
Re: Undo until death?
Posted:
Jan 21, 2006, 7:30 AM
I haven't read the message boards in awhile. I just wanted to chime in to commend up2ng on his phenominal memory. The incident he described happened a long time ago, and it happened to ME, not to up2ng, yet every detail is exactly correct as he described it. I am impressed.
awakening... nice picture.
As for undos, I believe I can sum up the "rules" rather simply: Treat others as you would wish to be treated. And if the way you wish to be treated is vastly different from what people would likely expect, inform your opponent of your unusual stance. End of story.
If I do not accept a game invite right away, it means I will once I have fewer games in progress.
