So weird that your "live game" means online play... Live games are being played face to face, with board, clock and stones. And, of course, with either swap2 or Tarannikov opening rules. At least during last 10 years I've never heard about anybody playing Pro Pente live. I mean, not online but live.
> it was simpler to make one move every few days over several months
Well, for me it's crazy inconvenient.
Renju Correspondence World Championship is being played in leagues, each league consists of groups of size 12, High League has size 10. Double round robin, 135 days/game. One year - one cycle. That's manageable and this system runs since 90s mostly without skipped years. It dies over time, thanks to programs, but still exists.
2 days/move... well, I've been on a serious tournament (TWC) during this Masters, and if there were games starting on Pente.org, I would forfeit each and every. I can't go to mountains for several days, I can't go hiking with family, I have to think hard every evening. It's a format for those who have no life. And I hope you want as many participants as possible - and it directly contradicts with 2 days/move.
> Live tourneys are a good idea in theory. In practice, they are plagued with even worse delays than turn-based.
Well, maybe there are some lessons to learn from other games?
In gomoku, people play Euroleague which is team (!) tournament by Swiss system, one round takes two weeks. They play "live" games (10+3 or smth about that). It takes a couple of hours to play a round for a given match.
The main idea of Euroleague is an "admin date", if two teams didn't agree on time and date of the match, they play on Sunday evening, smth like 19:00 CET, don't remember exactly and it doesn't really matter. Forfeits are quite rare and never occur when strong teams meet. And remember, for match to happen, there should be 6+ players online (and several years ago 8+ because team size shrank 4 -> 3 nowadays, and plus reserve players).
In renju, there were numerous online tournaments during covid lockdown, usually 30+15 time control, in two or three days, gathering players from the whole globe: Japan, China, Russia, Europe like Sweden/Estonia/Greece/Czechia/whatever, USA. Youth World Cup is being played online every year in July, three days, three rounds per day since covid, usually 100+ players afair.
So everything is possible if there are players.
Why Pente has problems here? Maybe just low motivation of players? Why do they have low motivation? Gomoku experienced it (first player wins => very demotivating for most players to play as P2 => interest in the game drops quickly) and found the way.
18 players spanning multiple generations, with unique play styles and personalities, get together in the year 2026 (40 years after pente was declared dead btw) to play pente at the highest level, demonstrating rich and previously unseen ideas on both sides of the board (not a whole lot of that coming from you, just yet), while at the same generating the type of lively discussion that I doubt you see anything close to at your vaunted renju correspondence tournaments.
You can play your way. We'll keep playing our way, thanks.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
Have you read the topic or your main idea is to say that Pente is perfect and it doesn't need any development, be it tournament rules, opening rules, organization process or anything else?
Well, the whole topic was started because a top-player is saying that he is extremely tired of this format, 2 days/move. You agreed with that telling that "live" games are also dull.
I'm telling you that both these formats, TB and "live" (as well as f2f) are available for other similar games, and there are differences in organization of these tournaments which remove problems mentioned in the topic. These differences are simple, it is easy to try them. And it doesn't mean that renju or gomoku or go or chess or whatever is better than pente, btw. They have the experience and I'm here to share this experience with Pente players. That's all. Peace.
ok im back. was loopy last night but off that hydrocodone this morning despite pain, for long enough to map out Owen's P2. and review all the p1 false wins in the data base that he hoped i would copy. very educational.
Owen you asked me and another player in tourney to give you easy moves. i did not play N10 to appease your request, but you did. you played it safe on your second, while i used unfamiliar path. your 3rd in that game doesn't count, as after N10, mapping and control becomes much easier, intuitive. you talk of how you have the entire game solved, and that its too easy. yet you need handy caps to compete. and heavily rely on other masters moves. and try to poach our members, and put nails into the coffin of pente.
"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
/
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Someone is questioning if im a cheater because I openly admit to the world that I use the db during turn based tourneys. this is due to the sites rules were poorly written, and were regarding live tourneys. this has now been corrected.
The 20 year old rules are referring to live tourneys. I asked rainwolf to update the wording. To be clear, everyone can use the db in turn based. Just not in live rated play. Im pretty sure all top players who have a subscription and have been around for a bit already know this. So I guess this is for the new guys.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Ideally, database usage would be prohibited. But due to (a) the impossibility of enforcing this and (b) the difference between turn-based and live play being the former encourages deep research while the latter encourages quick thinking (similar to live vs. correspondence chess), the pente community reached something close to a consensus back in 2014 that db usage was acceptable for turn-based play, but forbidden for live rated games.
The site has a feature that locks you out of the db when you are playing a live rated game. No such lockout occurs during turn-based tournaments.
It is unfortunate that the official rules (https://www.pente.org/help/helpWindow.jsp?file=tourneyCheating ) haven't been updated to reflect this. They are still tailored exclusively to live (online) play, as you can immediately tell by the prohibition against playing stones on a physical board during the game, which should never apply to turn-based games. Hopefully we can get a new ruleset added that applies to TB tournaments.
Edit: I see that an amendment to the rules has been added. I will discuss possible further edits with rainwolf. If anyone would like to share their opinion on the topic of db usage during rated tb games, I am all ears.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
Altough, up to now, I've never used the database or any other kind of assistance during my turn-based games, I've always assumed that turn-based games here were like correspondance games in chess, meaning that my oponents might use any kind of assistance.
The rules as they were written before the update were definitively ambiguous (at least to me), but the new version is now perfectly clear regarding the use of the database. The question now is: what about the use of ai? Is there a consensus regarding its use during turn-based games? From the old thread you found it seems that, at that time, the use of ai was considered allowed. Is that still the case? I find the new version of the rules still unclear on this point.
That being said, since live games seem to be almost completely dead, and from the few games I'v played, I'm pretty sure that a significant number of players here play turn-based games as if they were live games. This certainly creates some confusion regarding the rules and might make difficult for a consensus to emerge.
Here is my opinion. AI during rated play is not allowed. Ai before a game starts, or after it finishes, is allowed. Can we enforce this? No. If every move matches what Ai would do in post game analysis, then possibly raises a red flag. Now granted some lines, which people have been pondering on. A person may have done pre game AI prep. Which is allowed. So, but, in wild lines, that have not been pondered, if all the moved match AI, its becomes a slight red flag.
In modern chess, all top players do pre game and post game AI prep. This has been publicly discussed by all top players in chess. But never during a game. Not allowed.
My moves are not AI. I do a style that AI cant imagine. My style is stronger. But I sometimes do post game AI analysis, to check my opponents moves. To see if they used AI. Now, understand, once a line gets narrowed down. Often times a AIs moves and a masters move will match, when only one solution, or fastest solution, and the solution is intuitive enough to find.
Additionally, im aware of AI weaknesses. If a player uses AI for all moves, I will sweep that player every single time. The current AIs are extremely flawed.
Karl feel free to chime in on his questions and concerns.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
My response to AI in pente is to bury my head in the sand. I have never used it and will never use it, and I prefer to believe that it doesn't exist in this sacred space.
Historically, we have benefited from being a small enough community that the intersection of AI developers and pente enthusiasts was essentially zero--small enough to ensure that the best AI programs remained far inferior to top players well past the day that it eclipsed the best chess and Go players. I don't know what the state is today, and I'm sure I don't care. Solving pente hardly justifies the water usage.
I will vehemently defend database usage during turn-based games, especially an uncurated database such as the one we have here. I will wager that 80% of the serious games in the database have at least one blunder that turned a win into a loss, and 50% have multiple. The numbers go down when you restrict to top players, but it's still higher than you think. I use the db to get inspiration for the opening 3-4 moves, then take over the calculations myself.
To the people who bemoan the fact that they are no longer playing a single person's brain and they don't like that fact: I commiserate with you, but that's why we have other ways to play pente. You can even start a "db haters" group that collectively agrees to never touch the database. Or you could only play against non-subscribers. But at the top level, db usage is part of the culture, with what I believe are mostly positive consequences.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
